how to run a 2nd bat.

[Thnking 10+ year member]

lol i have already measured everything...where have i stated that anyone ever add 3-4 batteries without upgrading an alt ???i know people who have is all i ever brought up and their results were alot different than what YOU said. you have disproved nothing... another instance my father has 1400 watt system in his 00 expo with a 190 amp alty his duralast battery started to take a shit and wow dimming lights out the arse....funny thing is with factory alt and a second battery it was far more stable......

There are so many variables which can explain any of your examples. You’re trying to argue a non-factual based argument against my physics based argument. Just like I can tell you that my 180A alternator runs a stable 14V with my 4000W RMS system. Or that the automotive industry is moving away from using car batteries an onto using large banks of super capacitors for the charging system, because the voltage drops between the 14V alternator and the 12V battery is causing many electrical problems.

Any point you try to make doesn’t alleviate the fact that a battery only adds current to the system after a 2V drop has already occurred.

hmmm i wish i could just type shit on here like a keyboard comando while haveing done nothing..... not one time have i said alts dont work (you even had an alt manufacturer tell you that second batteries help more so than you give credit to) .... lol and when you were going on about your "battery specs" you were knowingly telling people to do a spec that was wrong anyway as it was how they figure RESERVE anyway then say low voltage doesnt kill amps...

Low voltage doesn’t kill amplifiers…any time you feel you actually understand how or why it would feel free to explain how it does. Again it’s just you saying something happens “because you know it does” without any backup or information on how it does. LOL it’s funny how you “prove” things.

And I told people to use Peukerts formula for determining longevity of a battery when a load is placed on it which differs from a manufacturers’ defined spec. I knew you wouldn’t be able to understand it, but it’s funny how you pretend to understand by arguing non-related points.

Will there be voltage drops? sure,

And that should be the end of the discussion, because the purpose of a proper electrical system should be to ELIMINATE voltage drops.

but there is no way possible that at the power levels we are talking about that any listener can hear the power loss from 14.4V to 12.2 (or whatever it drops to). All we need to accomplish is a larger charging over a period of driving time playing music, which really isn't all that hard to do.

LOL, ok and who defines the “period of driving time”. What happens when a song has a system load of 100A during 1second 10 times over a 2 minute song which has an average RMS load of 20A. Even though the voltage drops significantly over this short time, who cares, let’s just ignore the huge dimming on an 80A alternator, and the large voltage fluxuation affecting all of the components in the car.

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

I have to agree with audiolife here my 2nd battery did stabilize voltage quite a bit. An alternator is just part of the electrical circuit if you dont have a battery hooked up voltage is NOT going to be stable. You have the battery their to stabilize voltage and to provide a backup of sorts. Adding a second battery WILL stabilize voltages as you are not taking power directly from the alternator instead you are drawing power from pretty much 1 LARGE battery and with that you have much less voltage drop and light dimmage.

So you’re telling me that by adding a large battery, the current draw magically bypasses the alternator and the battery now becomes the source.

Is this serious?

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

super caps in cars would spell the death of large wattage aftermarket systems. no one i know that takes car audio seriously gets a big alt and doesn't add a battery in back. the voltage issue you bring up is crazy an amplifier gets HOT (this starts getting the inner parts to heat up change color and starts the caps to swell eventually leaking) when it isn't getting the voltage it wants. in db drag where car on is not allowed during measuring during a 3 second burp i seen 12 amps in the same car go up in smoke just during practice. 4 at a time 3 burps switch out amps (4 Memphis 4000ds being run off 2 batteries as thats all that class allows) system voltage was dropping during the burp to very low 10v high 9 range switched out 1 battery because they only had 4 amps left instantly on burps voltage was half a volt higher than the highest it was before and NO blown amps over that whole event. the amount any given 1500-1800 watt system draws depends on many factors (speaker impedance, impedance rise, frequencies actually playing) then you also have to go by when the system is being used at high volume..the same exact system would vary in a large amount depending even on the material played. on a couple of daily driven show vehicles (1 which has 2 240-300 amp alts) on a 6000 watt system had 3 small batteries in back in conjunction to the alts. it totally ballooned all 3 batteries (almost to the point they exploded and this system wasn't played with the engine off) so to say a rear mounted battery doesn't or wouldn't get any of the load is ridiculous (iirc amps seen .6-.8 v higher voltage at the amps with the extra batteries). cure to that problem was modding the racks to accept 3 larger batts ding ding no more ballooning thats another topic however.

you cant eliminate voltage drops, no alt can instantly peak to meet a large load and large caps used in car audio (carbon based) are stagnant to even move power (too high of esr) and we don't use superconductors and the average joe isn't going to make 8-9 runs of 0 ga positive and negative off the battery ..... during music how often is a 1200 watt amp actually putting out anywhere close to 1200 watts? more than likely hardly ever to a non base head maybe milliseconds an hour it even gets to 80%.. i would however concur that anything close to over 2x potential draw its time to get an alt but in alot of cases people buy big amps and speakers without even taking into consideration the condition of their electrical (most kids (the majority of the buyers) drive 3 yr or older cars. they dont do the big 3 and dint even know the real condition of their battery up front. also if i was a betting man the length of time that they use caps in cars if they do will be very short lived as they have really light batteries now that do not have any voltage drop over their charge cycle. they use them now on missiles on the firring mechanism and the same source also powers the guidance system. esr is also really close to about any cap i know of....

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

super caps in cars would spell the death of large wattage aftermarket systems.

Super capacitor banks (with similar capacity as batteries) are going to be phasing out batteries in the near future.

no one i know that takes car audio seriously gets a big alt and doesn't add a battery in back.

So?

the voltage issue you bring up is crazy an amplifier gets HOT (this starts getting the inner parts to heat up change color and starts the caps to swell eventually leaking) when it isn't getting the voltage it wants. in db drag where car on is not allowed during measuring during a 3 second burp i seen 12 amps in the same car go up in smoke just during practice. 4 at a time 3 burps switch out amps (4 Memphis 4000ds being run off 2 batteries as thats all that class allows) system voltage was dropping during the burp to very low 10v high 9 range switched out 1 battery because they only had 4 amps left instantly on burps voltage was half a volt higher than the highest it was before and NO blown amps over that whole event. the amount any given 1500-1800 watt system draws depends on many factors (speaker impedance, impedance rise, frequencies actually playing) then you also have to go by when the system is being used at high volume..the same exact system would vary in a large amount depending even on the material played. on a couple of daily driven show vehicles (1 which has 2 240-300 amp alts) on a 6000 watt system had 3 small batteries in back in conjunction to the alts. it totally ballooned all 3 batteries (almost to the point they exploded and this system wasn't played with the engine off) so to say a rear mounted battery doesn't or wouldn't get any of the load is ridiculous (iirc amps seen .6-.8 v higher voltage at the amps with the extra batteries). cure to that problem was modding the racks to accept 3 larger batts ding ding no more ballooning thats another topic however.

Internal components become damaged because of excess voltage-current. If the voltage drops, and the current is increased, the VA stays relatively the same. If voltage is increased and current is lowered, VA stays relatively the same. If an amplifier is blowing transformers or the board is overheating, it’s because too much power is being generated. The person has the gains incorrectly set per the load…

Any modern amplifier worth anything has under/over voltage protection. IE: if the supply voltage is increased too high, rail voltage is too high the protective circuitry shuts the amp down or some resistors are blown. If supply voltage drops too low, rail voltage is too low, the amp shuts down or some resistors are blown.

Again, the gains are set improperly if the amplifier overheats given the amplifier has sufficient heat sinking. But the same thing would have happened if voltage didn’t drop a couple of volts… power dissipated is voltage * current, not current alone or voltage alone. The voltage dropping is circumstantial to the amplifier overheating.

Amplifiers 101.

A .5V increase in supply voltage isn’t going to eliminate amplifiers from overheating, the difference was in the amps.

And if batteries are swelling, it’s either because of construction or because they are being discharged much too low and then charged much too fast. Buying larger batteries isn’t going to make the problem go away, the charging system either needs to go with a higher output alternator to reduce drops, or needs to go with a battery bank source with a properly sized alternator to retain charge. This is basic stuff that you are misrepresenting.

You’re like one of those self diagnosing patients; you read some information and convince yourself of a completely wrong cause of the symptom.

you cant eliminate voltage drops, no alt can instantly peak to meet a large load

Sure they can, when they are properly sized. If they aren’t and the stator excites to a full field, it’s a different story, but the field can be fluxed to output current to meet load less than 10 milliseconds.

and large caps used in car audio (carbon based) are stagnant to even move power (too high of esr) and we don't use superconductors

I’m against capacitors in car audio. ESR is going to be the same in a capacitor as it is in a 12V battery…usually much more in the battery.

and the average joe isn't going to make 8-9 runs of 0 ga positive and negative off the battery ..... during music how often is a 1200 watt amp actually putting out anywhere close to 1200 watts?

Exactly, which is why alternators can easily be matched to the load. Additional batteries aren’t needed unless the load exceeds the source, which is basically only in competitions.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

http://www.tavrima.com/Alternato.PDF //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

looks like its still gonna use batteries to me and over all its alot weaker than what i am talking about although this shows promise in smaller electronics.

also wire from front battery to rear amp you are losing voltage up to a volt without multiple runs .

an alternator/charging system in a typical car does not work that fast as a whole for the second time there is more to the system than a stator.

a 1200 watt system hooked up to speakers in a typical set up will probably only peak draw 80 amps to music as my class ab only peaks on test tones at 52 amps plays music hovers from 7 to 40 amps usually. "480 watts RMS" and is very inefficient for what it is. like i said 200 times before regardless if you believe it or not it does not dim.

that competitor set up the amp's gains the same way each time with a dmm when he switched them out. do you think a manufacturer is going to hand out 12 $1900

amps to someone that cant take instructions or is totally dumb?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

when the unit shuts down due to low voltage or current it stresses before it shuts down particularly if its being driven hard as it shuts down and will at least fail over time . i totally understand ohm's law i have since the 7th grade............... so basically without saying so you admit this point as you recognize it must be doing something to NEED this protection. less voltage you have the less efficient it is when its less efficient it generates heat. heat in most electronics is bad......

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

http://www.tavrima.com/Alternato.PDF //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.giflooks like its still gonna use batteries to me and over all its alot weaker than what i am talking about although this shows promise in smaller electronics.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php

http://www.engr.wisc.edu/wiscengr/feb06/Lithium%20Ion.shtml

http://www.thetech.org/about/press/index.php?id=134

Your article points to the same occurrence happening, of course it’s not happening overnight.

also wire from front battery to rear amp you are losing voltage up to a volt without multiple runs .

an alternator/charging system in a typical car does not work that fast as a whole for the second time there is more to the system than a stator.

If the wire is sized properly, there isn’t going to be a 1V drop. Even the lowest standard for wire selection, without using ampacity, is .5V.

The alternator is reacting to changing load, the output is going to be varying. And the reaction to that variation is going to be under 10ms. I know it’s difficult to face reality, but it is what it is.

a 1200 watt system hooked up to speakers in a typical set up will probably only peak draw 80 amps to music as my class ab only peaks on test tones at 52 amps plays music hovers from 7 to 40 amps usually. "480 watts RMS" and is very inefficient for what it is. like i said 200 times before regardless if you believe it or not it does not dim.

How does this relate to anything… If there is no dimming and no related significant voltage drops no electrical upgrades need to be done.

that competitor set up the amp's gains the same way each time with a dmm when he switched them out. do you think a manufacturer is going to hand out 12 $1900

amps to someone that cant take instructions or is totally dumb?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

How am I supposed to know?

If you think that a .5V increase in supply voltage for a given load and gains set point has somehow stopped an amplifier from overheating, you’re crazy. V*A=P. Voltage increasing doesn’t mean less heat. You need a basic high school physics class again, even though below you say you understand it…

when the unit shuts down due to low voltage or current it stresses before it shuts down particularly if its being driven hard as it shuts down and will at least fail over time . i totally understand ohm's law i have since the 7th grade............... so basically without saying so you admit this point as you recognize it must be doing something to NEED this protection. less voltage you have the less efficient it is when its less efficient it generates heat. heat in most electronics is bad......

I said was that there is protection for under voltage and over voltage. Amplifier designers have limiting factors when selecting components, like Safe Operating Areas (SOA) for transistors to prevent secondary breakdown. They are current relative to voltage, or vice versa, operating ranges for transistors. Protection circuitry is in place to keep the components operating as they were intended to and to prevent instability.

If you see an amplifier which doesn’t have protection circuitry for its output stage or VA stage, show me I’d be absolutely amazed.

Where in the amplifier does efficiency drop when supply voltage drops…I bet you can’t tell me. Why? Because it doesn’t necessarily drop, that’s mainly a topology issue.

The fact remains that excess power over heats the amplifier, not a decrease in voltage. The two don’t go hand in hand. If the gains are set right, then a decrease in voltage isn’t going to do anything to the amplifier. And if the gains are set too low (input too high) an increase in voltage, a decrease in voltage, or the voltage remaining the same will damage it.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

"How am I supposed to know?

If you think that a .5V increase in supply voltage for a given load and gains set point has somehow stopped an amplifier from overheating, you’re crazy. V*A=P. Voltage increasing doesn’t mean less heat. You need a basic high school physics class again, even though below you say you understand it."

wow so are you saying now that there are no limitations for the amplifier to operate? the protection makes it bullet proof? (no such thing in consumer electronics). by design to any electronics there are specific voltage and current limitations. most amps work within the range 10.5v to 16v but there is a cost in efficiency as you lose voltage. the amplifier puts out less wattage and draws more current. in the 14.4 to 13.5 volt range some amplifiers are more "consistent" in efficiency than others. 1-2% drop in effinciency can be 1-4 more amps drawn on a 200-300 watt amp..fall below 12v in most amps the loss in efficiency will be greater by a much larger margin. so the amp will again draw more and more current and lose power and efficiency which is dissipated by the heat sink problem is for the heatsink to work the parts get hot then it pulls the heat away faster than it would normally. here in case even with a fan there is only so much you can do unless you totally over engineer the amp. you say amps have all this built in protection but tell me if you never heard of an amp thats stuck in protection lol.

also do you plan on reving your engine to 2000-4500 rpm when you are wanting to crank up your system? when you do that in effect with a high output alt you are then load matching it unless you are going to tell me that all ho output alts put out 80-100% (most do 35-55%)power at idle (wont happen) and even if you turned up your idle and put a smaller pully on the alt you are killing the alt alot faster and taking away some hp from the engine+fuel usage. what are you going to tell me now that electrical systems in vehicles have automated engine speed controls to meet required load and do this within 10ms too? lol

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

"How am I supposed to know?

If you think that a .5V increase in supply voltage for a given load and gains set point has somehow stopped an amplifier from overheating, you’re crazy. V*A=P. Voltage increasing doesn’t mean less heat. You need a basic high school physics class again, even though below you say you understand it…"

i have never seen an amp from front to back to the amp with the same voltage (back was always lower even with 0 ga) and by the time a system is playing or burping at times there is .5v or a little more difference. i have seen up to 1v differences AT the amps though during a burps with the car on and a high output alt in place..... 250 amp alt on a ford expo (could get bigger but would be a custom wind $$$$) with the right sized pulley still dipped system had 2 15 L7's and 2 kicker 1200's and another big kicker 4 channel. we ended up putting in a westco battery to help lessen the dip (was before kinetik was even around) that system had 3 runs of 0 ga and had a nasty drop of close to 1 v during a burp then we added the battery with 2 runs of pos 0g and 2 neg runs voltage was nearly .7 v higher and didnt dip nearly as bad during a burp was still a high 12v (12.6-12.9)this is just going off of memory but at night his system didnt flicker like it did. that was with so called load matching. it wasnt and isnt a "show car"in fact its pretty well trashed now (the vehicle not the system). i think its all fine and dandy how fast you say a car electrical system is but during music how often is the load going to change in 10 ms? dont look at 1 point of time look at the whole picture over time.

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

wow so are you saying now that there are no limitations for the amplifier to operate? the protection makes it bullet proof? (no such thing in consumer electronics). by design to any electronics there are specific voltage and current limitations. most amps work within the range 10.5v to 16v but there is a cost in efficiency as you lose voltage. the amplifier puts out less wattage and draws more current. in the 14.4 to 13.5 volt range some amplifiers are more "consistent" in efficiency than others. 1-2% drop in effinciency can be 1-4 more amps drawn on a 200-300 watt amp..fall below 12v in most amps the loss in efficiency will be greater by a much larger margin. so the amp will again draw more and more current and lose power and efficiency which is dissipated by the heat sink problem is for the heatsink to work the parts get hot then it pulls the heat away faster than it would normally. here in case even with a fan there is only so much you can do unless you totally over engineer the amp. you say amps have all this built in protection but tell me if you never heard of an amp thats stuck in protection lol.

I know circuitry meant to limit voltage and current isn’t going to alleviate all problems with over current/voltage. I never said they do, there are 2 separate issues here and you’ve lumped them together.

1. Rail voltage –> over-voltage and under-voltage limiting.

2. Improper setting of gains or improper heat sinking.

The limiting circuitry is going protect the amplifier from under voltage or over voltage on the power supply (ie #1). Either the circuitry is going to mute the amp, or resistors are going to blow *(there are more techniques to this). You’re incorrectly referencing #2 as being the same as #1.

Efficiency of the amplifier is defined as V*A in vs. V*A out. Dropping voltage isn’t necessarily decreasing efficiency. If voltage drops on the PS, load current increases. V*A remains typically the same. Heat is generated by work done, V*A*time. Increasing current while potential drops doesn’t mean more heat is generated. This is basic Ohms law stuff. Do you understand this now? This is why you’re wrong.

also do you plan on reving your engine to 2000-4500 rpm when you are wanting to crank up your system? when you do that in effect with a high output alt you are then load matching it unless you are going to tell me that all ho output alts put out 80-100% (most do 35-55%)power at idle (wont happen) and even if you turned up your idle and put a smaller pully on the alt you are killing the alt alot faster and taking away some hp from the engine+fuel usage. what are you going to tell me now that electrical systems in vehicles have automated engine speed controls to meet required load and do this within 10ms too? lol

It’s easy to increase idle RPM at the throttle for most cars. Mine idles at 2.2K RPM. Someone can also have the alt. manufacturer increase low RPM current output at the alternator. Usually someone like Dominic I. can do it for around 30$. Something like a 200A alternator can easily be adjusted to output 100-130A at idle RPM per car. That translates into probably around a 2000-3000watt “RMS” system begin used at idle, and is ridiculously loud.

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

i have never seen an amp from front to back to the amp with the same voltage (back was always lower even with 0 ga) and by the time a system is playing or burping at times there is .5v or a little more difference. i have seen up to 1v differences AT the amps though during a burps with the car on and a high output alt in place..... 250 amp alt on a ford expo (could get bigger but would be a custom wind $$$$) with the right sized pulley still dipped system had 2 15 L7's and 2 kicker 1200's and another big kicker 4 channel. we ended up putting in a westco battery to help lessen the dip (was before kinetik was even around) that system had 3 runs of 0 ga and had a nasty drop of close to 1 v during a burp then we added the battery with 2 runs of pos 0g and 2 neg runs voltage was nearly .7 v higher and didnt dip nearly as bad during a burp was still a high 12v (12.6-12.9)this is just going off of memory but at night his system didnt flicker like it did. that was with so called load matching. it wasnt and isnt a "show car"in fact its pretty well trashed now (the vehicle not the system). i think its all fine and dandy how fast you say a car electrical system is but during music how often is the load going to change in 10 ms? dont look at 1 point of time look at the whole picture over time.

Anytime a battery alleviated the dimming, the alternator wasn’t sized correctly, the wiring wasn’t large enough, or the system wasn’t installed correctly. There’s no discussion here.

The major load of any system is going to be under 120hz, the actual bass note is going to be probably around 500ms-2000ms. Small fluxuations in voltage due to higher frequency notes are going to be insignificant to the alternator’s field, because the alternator only reacts to average load as fast as the voltage regulator can sense changes. I’m very familiar with this.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

raising your idle to 2.2k rpm is RETARDED as HELL for a DAILY nothing like the idle sounds of a car doing 35 but standing still wasted gas and just extra wear. you bring up points but where i gave my info about amp efficiency about any amp is like that 2% was done via 14.1 v and 13.4v on a 200 watt dual amp as a test report from PAS (that is well within great typical use). when i was a us amps rep (well before they moved to cali) they talked about about how important the car electrical was and what causes failure, same with audio art and kove (was a rep for them too)..fact is 99% of people that buy and use amps don't even use a dmm and is never refereed to in any owners manuals. you can throw whatever equations you want at it also because it wouldn't matter very much as it also depends on how tightly regulated the amp is but again in just about every case the better the voltage on a regulated amp the cooler the amp will operate was nearly a 20 degree difference in operation between my ppi amps with and without a battery in back...also regardless to what else you want to throw in....a car electrical system will always always lag behind.....you just don't want to admit that a battery does and can help when done right. don't need to come across all scientific either as not many people here will follow you....2.2k rpm is even about 200 rpm higher than they let extreme cars run at when they burp lol must like watching the exhaust.....

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

raising your idle to 2.2k rpm is RETARDED as HELL for a DAILY nothing like the idle sounds of a car doing 35 but standing still wasted gas and just extra wear

I must have hit 2 instead of 1, I meant my car idles at 1.2KRPM. Again there are other ways to adjust this at the alternator or the computer controller….the point is it can be adjusted.

you bring up points but where i gave my info about amp efficiency about any amp is like that 2% was done via 14.1 v and 13.4v on a 200 watt dual amp as a test report from PAS (that is well within great typical use). when i was a us amps rep (well before they moved to cali) they talked about about how important the car electrical was and what causes failure, same with audio art and kove (was a rep for them too)..fact is 99% of people that buy and use amps don't even use a dmm and is never refereed to in any owners manuals. you can throw whatever equations you want at it also because it wouldn't matter very much as it also depends on how tightly regulated the amp is but again in just about every case the better the voltage on a regulated amp the cooler the amp will operate was nearly a 20 degree difference in operation between my ppi amps with and without a battery in back

I build amps, I have a 150W RMS class B I’m working on right now. Again, reality follows OHM’s law , and you’re somehow trying to convince yourself that it doesn’t.

...also regardless to what else you want to throw in....a car electrical system will always always lag behind.....you just don't want to admit that a battery does and can help when done right. don't need to come across all scientific either as not many people here will follow you....2.2k rpm is even about 200 rpm higher than they let extreme cars run at when they burp lol must like watching the exhaust.....

Don’t get your panties in a bunch because you don’t understand how physics applies to the real wortld, to back up your imaginary beliefs.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

roflmao you are a hoot. your car was designed to operate smoothly at xxx rpm why screw with the rpm when all you need to do is get a down sized pulley? i understand alot more than you think but all you do is grasp 1 area tinker it and act like its the fix. no car amp is pure class B and i built my first amp in 93.........big freaking whooooooooooop it was a 12 watt dc amp, i have built tube amps for clients before too has 0 bearing to any off this