My first "Active" "SQ'ish" build attempt.


SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
the right side is out there and vocals land just to the slight right of the center of the steering wheel.

Thanks SkizeR
No worries. But just a heads up, center is supposed to be center of the car, not directly in front of you. Keep that in mind
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

AudioFreak
Jun 8, 2018
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Saint Marys, GA
No worries. But just a heads up, center is supposed to be center of the car, not directly in front of you. Keep that in mind
Yeah, some say center of car some say in front of the driver... I think it's preference on center image. Personally, I want the singer in front of me, just like a concert.
 

SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
Yeah, some say center of car some say in front of the driver... I think it's preference on center image. Personally, I want the singer in front of me, just like a concert.
I don't agree. Well, yeah i guess some will prefer that, but it doesnt come down to preference. One is correct, and one isnt. When you properly delay your signal, eq all drivers to the same response and match their levels to a T, center image will be in the center of the car. In order to move the center, you have to mess up your now-correctly tuned system. Best way is with levels, but if you do this, your soundstage turns to shit just to make one portion of the music to sound like its in front of you. I have customers tell me all the time that they want this. I give them two presets. all things the same except center is shifted. Never once have i had one not say "yeah, center in the center of the dash is better" later on.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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Hmmm.

To shift the "center image" to the right and place it center of the dash would mean everything on the left side would also shift to the right. There is no way to move just the male or female vocals and not affect all the other sound right?

I am measuring from the speakers to my left and right ears making the circle of sound around my head which makes center in front of me by default. Literally my goal is to make the stereo sound as if I have the left side speakers mounted outside the car, the same distance away that my right speakers are... see example image 1a.

If I read you correctly, what you are saying is correct imaging is example image 2b. Forgive the right hand drive image, just flip it lol. It has the center of the car as the center of the soundstage which again, puts the singer to one side... I don't know why people call this a true center image. It should be called a true skewed offset center image. To make it actually centered, I would have to rotate in my seat to face the center by several degrees. Like going to a concert and sitting to one side of the stage. Again, my opinion is that the sound should be front and center. If I am at home, I sit directly in the middle of my speakers... not to the left at an angle.

My understanding of the DSP is to align the speaker so you are in the middle of the sound. If you have to twist your body to center the dash... that defeats the purpose right?

1a.



2b.

 

SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
Thats not how it works. Your left and right boundaries are dictated by the speaker locations and the reflections that are associated with them. Sometimes you can get cues that make it sound like its a *LITTLE* bit outside of the car, but no, you will never have a car that has a center image in front of you that has equal distance between left and center and right and center unless the seat is in the middle of the car. Center is center of the stage, which will almost always be center of the car. If you tune properly, this is where it will end up. If your center is ending up somewhere else, your tune isn't correct and there are at least 3 other things that are compromised in order to have that center image location. Dont do it. It doesnt sound good.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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Saint Marys, GA
Thats not how it works. Your left and right boundaries are dictated by the speaker locations and the reflections that are associated with them. Sometimes you can get cues that make it sound like its a *LITTLE* bit outside of the car, but no, you will never have a car that has a center image in front of you that has equal distance between left and center and right and center unless the seat is in the middle of the car. Center is center of the stage, which will almost always be center of the car. If you tune properly, this is where it will end up. If your center is ending up somewhere else, your tune isn't correct and there are at least 3 other things that are compromised in order to have that center image location. Dont do it. It doesnt sound good.
Basically what I am hoping for is wishful thinking and is physically limited to where the speakers are mounted. That makes sense... so at that point the only option I have is elevation and distance. This is easy enough to do with the DSP as I play with it from time to time.

I know I can elevate the left side with more or less treble/mids and I know I can push the sound forward (out to the hood) with volume "creating" distance. I am assuming I can do this better by EQing each speaker individually? So far everything you have said hasn't steered me wrong, which is why they call you a professional ;) any tips on frequencies or + or - db's to do it right?
 

SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
No, you cannot "create" elevation and distance. Its ALL depending and limited by the speaker and its location, and the reflections. getting the stage high is easy. At minimum you need higher frequencies up top and they just need to be in phase with the lower frequency drivers. Width is the next easiest to simulate due to reflections. But depth is almost impossible. You hear people say "that car stages out on the hood" or something similar to that. I've yet to hear a car that actually sounds like the center image, or any other part of the sound stage for that matter, actually sound like they're coming from past the windshield without lying to myself.

So long story short, install your speakers in good locations in a way that doesnt cause issues (rattles, bad comb filtering, etc), and tune them appropriately, then enjoy your center image in the center of the car with a proportionately spaced soundstage.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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No, you cannot "create" elevation and distance. Its ALL depending and limited by the speaker and its location, and the reflections. getting the stage high is easy. At minimum you need higher frequencies up top and they just need to be in phase with the lower frequency drivers. Width is the next easiest to simulate due to reflections. But depth is almost impossible. You hear people say "that car stages out on the hood" or something similar to that. I've yet to hear a car that actually sounds like the center image, or any other part of the sound stage for that matter, actually sound like they're coming from past the windshield without lying to myself.

So long story short, install your speakers in good locations in a way that doesnt cause issues (rattles, bad comb filtering, etc), and tune them appropriately, then enjoy your center image in the center of the car with a proportionately spaced soundstage.
You're killin' me man!!

I can move the tweeters back to the A-Pillars... that's the best I can do if I want to mess with it more. Right now I have bigger problems. I forgot to remove the door panel and fix the connection on my drivers side silverflute. She's cuttin in and out over bumps some times. Stupid spade connections!!!
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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I have no fuses for my amplifiers. I have but one Stinger 300a circuit breaker under the hood that I defeat when I work on the system. On the way back from my last delivery... tell me how this happens, I am bumping D.J. Magic Mike at literally max volume and bass at max via my 3Sixty.3's twin remote knob, and suddenly silence. The head unit is still playing as I can see it counting the seconds on the track. No lights on the knob. No lights on either amp or the DSP. After my return I discovered it tripped the 300a breaker. No way this system pulls 300 amps. No way. The 1200-1D prime amp max draw is 110 amps on a sine wave so that leaves 190 amps to be drawn from the Barbara Ann... I don't think so.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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Dig this. I also found out that my sub is only getting half the signal with stereo sub bass. I have been noticing that my bass seems lacking on some songs where it really hit hard before. Then I confirmed this when I was listening to N.W.A.'s "If it ain't ruff" track on Straight Outta Compton for the first time in a long time. This track has reversed bass and I am very familiar with it. When the first bass note hit it was not on beat today. I went WTF? right away. It took me about four bass notes to go "WHERE IS THE REST OF THE SONG???"

When I got home I played the track on my computer and sure enough, my Yamaha active servo sub is playing all the bass notes. So now I have to hook up the laptop to the DSP. I am pretty sure I am summing one rear channel to make my sub output. SMH.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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I just hooked up the laptop to the 360.3. The subwoofer is all wrapped up and hitting like it spoda. HARD!!! Oh and that track is now playing both sub-bass channels. Took 4 minutes.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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I took my door panel off the drivers door, removed the Silverflute and inspected the connection and lead wires. I see no issues and the connection to the speakers terminals is tight. I see no water damage or wetness anywhere. Reassembled the door and tested the balance. It fades left to right with no issues. Actually, since I fixed the subwoofer issue and had to change RCA inputs to my DSP and had to redo the input levels and assign speakers in and out channels... the stereo is slightly louder with the mids and highs and the bass is WAY louder. Road test tomorrow at work.

I can't wait to get a different vehicle and transfer/transplant most of this gear into the new ride. I need 4 doors, this 2 door car is a pain in the rectum. Unless I can find a 2 door hatchback.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

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Jun 8, 2018
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Well I listened and tested the bigger box on both subs, mostly the P3D4 and no matter where I cross it over or boost/cut the eq for the sub in the bigger box, it refuses to give me my upper sub-bass. Since I have the P3D4 and the old enclosure in my room, I am going to wire it all up (2ohms) and install the P3D4 back in the original enclosure. That one had the upper sub-bass all day long. It wasn't as loud below 35hz as the big box but the ratio of bass music to Jazz through Death Metal that I listen to isn't enough for me to miss the upper sub-bass. The Dayton Ultimax 10 sounds to me to be a faster responding sub, more spring like if that makes sense compared to the P3D4 Punch sub... the Punch feels heavier when playing.

Big Box - 1.40 cubic feet - Slot Port - 35hz tuned - 3/4" mounting surface

Original Box - 1.37 cubic feet - Labyrinth Slot Port - 42hz tuned - 1" mounting surface

The difference in size. The big box is wider, the original box is deeper.

 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

AudioFreak
Jun 8, 2018
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Saint Marys, GA
Oh, the Dayton Audio AN25Ti-4 tweeters are officially on the way. Yay. 95.5db sensitivity... The ARC 1.0 Silk Tweets I am using I think are in the 88-89db range.
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

AudioFreak
Jun 8, 2018
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Saint Marys, GA
A while back I may have mentioned that I bought some music from HDTracks and I told them it was distorted and clipped... they were cool about it and refunded my money but I just got my Audition working again and I am pretty sure I was right on the money... This is one of the tracks just as I downloaded it from HDTracks. You tell me...

 

SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
Oh, the Dayton Audio AN25Ti-4 tweeters are officially on the way. Yay. 95.5db sensitivity... The ARC 1.0 Silk Tweets I am using I think are in the 88-89db range.
just a heads up, these are a poor choice for a two way setup. Very high FS and will need to be crossed at 4k or higher. This is why sensitivity is so high. Also, the cap that comes with it isn't meant to be a crossover. Its meant to protect the tweeter for "just in case" moments, like user error on DSP, turn-on pops, etc
 
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ThxOne

ThxOne

AudioFreak
Jun 8, 2018
2,565
461
Saint Marys, GA
just a heads up, these are a poor choice for a two way setup. Very high FS and will need to be crossed at 4k or higher. This is why sensitivity is so high. Also, the cap that comes with it isn't meant to be a crossover. Its meant to protect the tweeter for "just in case" moments, like user error on DSP, turn-on pops, etc
Way ahead of you brother. I got the cap separate from the tweeters for just that reason, "Just in case". I am looking for a small 2 channel amp and I am going to retest my 2.75" DD mids to make sure they are ok.... if they test fine, they are going back in the doors. I was thinking 4k - 4.5k on the new tweeters so I am glad you said something, lets me know I am on the right track.

Side note SkizeR... I have watched a bunch of Apicella videos on Youtube. Is that you or people you know? Cool vids either way.
 

SkizeR

Member
May 28, 2011
195
49
New York
Way ahead of you brother. I got the cap separate from the tweeters for just that reason, "Just in case". I am looking for a small 2 channel amp and I am going to retest my 2.75" DD mids to make sure they are ok.... if they test fine, they are going back in the doors. I was thinking 4k - 4.5k on the new tweeters so I am glad you said something, lets me know I am on the right track.
3 way will be a large step up over a 2 way. 4.5k for a 3 way will be okay

Side note SkizeR... I have watched a bunch of Apicella videos on Youtube. Is that you or people you know? Cool vids either way.
That is me
 
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