Wow Orion Nice job.

Install and tune. Fix the envirement. The envirement is the artifact.Yes I drank the cool aid. I have zero issue admitting it. It was a wake up call once I learnt I knew nothing.

I will say building a REAL sq car has taught me many lessons. Proven what I thought I knew wrong many times.

I have learnt the equipment means very little. From amp topology to fluffed up cone material.
"I have learnt the equipment means very little. From amp topology to fluffed up cone material." More regurgitation that it's all in the install. This is meant to feed one's own ego and give himself proper credit that he was a good boy and used his know-how to do a good install. Let's start with this one because it will rob you of your full potential. And I mean YOU. For what you can do with average equipment (and I mean that as a compiment), what any of us can do, you could do so much more with drivers that have a far better motor structure and very careful creation & matching of cone/spider/surround materials to ensure a plethora of design criteria. Drivers are so much more than just a cone moving back and forth or just absorbing thermal abuse. Do you really believe that because you don't understand it, didn't design it or you don't have the money to spend on it, that it couldn't possibly be better? I mean you are even dismissing the fact that there are teams upon teams of R&D departments all over the map that get paid to develop drivers everyday. Are those people all showing up and faking the funk to collect a paycheck so that one guy can market a driver that can't do what he's advertising it can do? Again, if there were no merit to this, every chump in the lanes would be rocking the ugliest, cheapest shit simply from an economical standpoint. But they aren't. The best guys are very carefully selecting raw drivers based on numerous points and then sampling them. The seasoned guys will know almost immediately upon a free-air sampling of a driver in their hand if it possesses the magic they were hoping for, in order to know if it will fit the bill for their end install goals. Hint; they're listening first for general frequency response, yes, but you can believe they are also monitoring the driver's behavior as it relates to that see-through quality. Same with amplifiers. It's just pride that won't allow you to acknowledge something as simple as the differences between amplifier technologies. I can say with a mighty high degree of confidence that if I could pick a speaker system for you to sample the difference between a class A amplifier and a class D amplifier, you would most certainly hear the difference. I would know that you heard the difference and I would smile as you argued with me that you didn't. More than that, though, I would love to sit you down in my living room and let you sample the hundreds of different drivers that I have and see if you would finally acknowledge that you heard a difference, not in the frequency response (that's too obvious) but the way the drivers release the various complexities and details hidden in music that you thought you knew so well. All attributed to the low distortion motors and "cone fluff" as you put it. Not sure why you would bother to mention energy storage or rise and decay in this thread to suit your arguments about amplifiers but then dismiss it as it pertains to drivers for being one of the best reasons one driver might offer better performance over another. Perhaps you simply don't understand how it works.

I could pick another one of your lines apart but I won't persist in trying to expand your horizons any further. Mostly because you seem to know enough to be satisfied with things as they are. Ignorance is bliss, they say. You might want to give the advice thing a rest, though. I can see you responding in quite a few threads and I know some guys are going to be robbed of potential if they follow some of your suggestions. Why give advice that limits people?

 
I guess we both know what we know and are both satisfied with what we know.

There is more then one way to do it. That's proven in the lanes where everything from $20 speakers to $2000 speakers, different topologies of amps, and install techniques all manage to win.

I try to stay in my real world and do what I feel will win. It's worked so far.

Equipment is dumb, it will do as it's told as long as you are telling it to do what it can.

A DSP won't fix a bad install but it can make a driver do what it's needed to do.

Yes install and tune is everything. It don't matter how much you spent or what brand name is on it or what it's made of. Nothing will fix a 10db difference between the left and right side of the car without a tune. If you can't fix that it won't sound good, the image won't be stable, and tonality won't be right. That should completely sum it up.

My advice to you. Get a RTA, learn how to use it, gets piece that lets you use it, learn what the proper terminology is, apply it.

Then you can come back and say it sounds the same as before. But you won't say that because it won't.

 
Im pretty torn on this...

My best sounding vehicle used 8$ buyout mids from PE. Granted, i was running a prs80 active to an Audison sr4, Rainbow Cal26 tweets. Substage was a Hertz Hi Energy 12 on an Os kicker zrx240. The mids didnt stand out at all as a weak point. Doors were properly treated and i tuned my system with the Meca sq disc.

But on the other hand, my car by no means sounded amazing. Ive heard 2 cars in my life that did. One was running a pioneer p99 to a complete HAT setup, one of the higher hat lines.

The other amazing car I heard was all Hertz Mille via Prs80, installed by one of the premier installers in California.

I think very good setups can be acheived with less than elite equipment. But crossing the amazing threshold seems to require elite gear

 
It wasn't but a few years ago that I swore it took $1000 mids and $1000 tweeters, Brax graphic amps, high end deck to sound amazing.

Then I went from the respected alpine 117 which was a nice Burr Brown deck to the 80prs. At first I was very disappointed. Then I started learning how to tune, I still thought you needed elite gear at this point. Once I got the RTA and started matching the sides of the car, molding the response curve I started to think I might have been wrong. I found out you can make a speaker sound great or like poop with a bit of EQ. I got it sounding pretty good. Then I learnt the 80prs was still fairly limited along with the 99.

So I got a Bit one. The car went from what I thought sounded good to holy crap Axl Rose is standing on my hood.

That's when it all clicked and I was a believer. If I wouldn't have experienced that I would still think gear was the most important part.

I'm a firm advocate to tuning. Not because I read it somewhere but because I learnt it myself the hard way. I could have saved many thousand dollars if I would have known that all along.

No speaker or amplifier is magic. It won't fix your seating position, it won't match the sides of the car, it won't build a curve, it won't have great tonality until you make it right.

Ever since I learnt how it really works I wanted to get a beater car, coat it from top to bottom in sound treatment, get a 2 way boss speaker set and sub, as much boss power as I can put on them, a Helix DSP and see how far I can get.

 
A DSP won't fix a bad install but it can make a driver do what it's needed to do. Yes install and tune is everything.

My advice to you. Get a RTA, learn how to use it.
"A DSP won't fix a bad install but it can make a driver do what it's needed to do." - DSP cannot improve the impulse response of a driver, neither can your install. In fact, you install is more likely to impact the impulse response in a negative way based on how the enclosure and fill are implemented. DSP cannot correct modes that travel within a cone, neither can your install. DSP cannot correct for irregular flux patterns in the motor that introduce nonlinearity purely linked to that physical relationship, neither can your install. I have more, but hopefully you are getting the point.
"Yes install and tune is everything." - It's just not, but I understand that you must maintain that line of thinking and will let the argument die.

"My advice to you. Get a RTA, learn how to use it." - I was using the old school Audiocontrol RTA in the 90's, lol. Horns under the dash, 10's in the doors, trio of 15W6 subs. I'm well past the basics. It's an art form now. And I'm actually very frugal. I love 10$ drivers and all that. You're trying to paint me into a corner, I'm trying to broaden your view. Which one is more positive and productive? Ask a guy who might be running a pair of the Illuminator drivers and ask him to regress into a lesser quality driver. Not too likely. He's not going back to a cheaper driver unless he was never able to extract the full potential to begin with.

You enjoy your self-imposed limitations if that's what's good for you. Luckily, you can't impose them on the rest of us because thankfully some of us have had different experiences and know differently.

 
It wasn't but a few years ago that I swore it took $1000 mids and $1000 tweeters, Brax graphic amps, high end deck to sound amazing.
Then I went from the respected alpine 117 which was a nice Burr Brown deck to the 80prs. At first I was very disappointed. Then I started learning how to tune, I still thought you needed elite gear at this point. Once I got the RTA and started matching the sides of the car, molding the response curve I started to think I might have been wrong. I found out you can make a speaker sound great or like poop with a bit of EQ. I got it sounding pretty good. Then I learnt the 80prs was still fairly limited along with the 99.

So I got a Bit one. The car went from what I thought sounded good to holy crap Axl Rose is standing on my hood.

That's when it all clicked and I was a believer. If I wouldn't have experienced that I would still think gear was the most important part.

I'm a firm advocate to tuning. Not because I read it somewhere but because I learnt it myself the hard way. I could have saved many thousand dollars if I would have known that all along.

No speaker or amplifier is magic. It won't fix your seating position, it won't match the sides of the car, it won't build a curve, it won't have great tonality until you make it right.

Ever since I learnt how it really works I wanted to get a beater car, coat it from top to bottom in sound treatment, get a 2 way boss speaker set and sub, as much boss power as I can put on them, a Helix DSP and see how far I can get.
I get it, you're in love with your DSP. You found DSP, taught yourself how to use it, learned a few things along the way... and lost site of the bigger picture. It's only one of the ingredients in the whole recipe. No more or no less important than driver/amplifier selection, install, know how...
Some of my best sounding shit was average equipment with a stellar install and zero benefit from DSP. I like that feeling of accomplishment, too. But I'm not going to say to myself that there isn't room for improvement in any of those ingredient categories. Again, it's just needless and senseless to impose a limitation on yourself like that.

S'all I'm sayin' yo.

 
You will never be able to build a proper 2 channel without a DSP. I was around SQ cars in the 90s. What we can do now blows them away.

It's simple. We don't sit in the middle of the car. The car is not identical on both sides. And lastly, reflections.

Now saying that as fact because it is. What driver or amp will fix those 3 issues?

Would a car that does not address those facts sound as good as one that does?

Would a car with top shelf gear that don't address those sound as good as one with lesser gear that does?

 
21hr drive. 10.5 hours each person, meet up and duke it out in an sq car battle.

G5KDbl.jpg


 
Here's a little story about last season. A guy showed up with LP amps and blues drivers. He was so proud of them and he's right to be I guess, I think Ray is a snake oil salesman. Anyway he thought he was going to do very good in the lane because he had 10 grand in equipment. I took a listen to it before he was judged. It didn't image at all, it was stuck on the pillar and the bottom of the door, no stage what so ever. It was unstable because all he had was a minimal mono EQ. Tonality was off because there was no way to adjust it. Every time the vocals had the Ssss sound it pulled straight to his tweeter. It was horrible if you know what to listen for.

I was trying to describe what I was hearing and he was way to stubborn to listen. He spent a lot and he knew it was golden.

He also didn't want to hear mine. Needless to say if more then 3 cars showed up he would have walked home empty handed.

My gear isn't cheap but it's not top shelf. I'm 100% confident I could get the same thing spending less but I wanted to do it with DD because nobody else is.

I'll put my theory to the test in a few weeks when I drop down a notch and swap my drivers to the DD Germans. If I'm wrong and I don't get the same effect from a lesser driver I will admit it.

 
21hr drive. 10.5 hours each person, meet up and duke it out in an sq car battle.
G5KDbl.jpg
Too funny, lol. I wish I lived in Florida, I'm sure we would be having a beer and whoopin it up rather than debating audio topics.
 
Here's a little story about last season. A guy showed up with LP amps and blues drivers. He was so proud of them and he's right to be I guess, I think Ray is a snake oil salesman. Anyway he thought he was going to do very good in the lane because he had 10 grand in equipment. I took a listen to it before he was judged. It didn't image at all, it was stuck on the pillar and the bottom of the door, no stage what so ever. It was unstable because all he had was a minimal mono EQ. Tonality was off because there was no way to adjust it. Every time the vocals had the Ssss sound it pulled straight to his tweeter. It was horrible if you know what to listen for. I was trying to describe what I was hearing and he was way to stubborn to listen. He spent a lot and he knew it was golden.

He also didn't want to hear mine. Needless to say if more then 3 cars showed up he would have walked home empty handed.

My gear isn't cheap but it's not top shelf. I'm 100% confident I could get the same thing spending less but I wanted to do it with DD because nobody else is.

I'll put my theory to the test in a few weeks when I drop down a notch and swap my drivers to the DD Germans. If I'm wrong and I don't get the same effect from a lesser driver I will admit it.
I hear ya. That's actually a pretty good story and I know we are similar in that regard. I've heard all of those things that you indicated you heard in that vehicle and it makes you shake your head. It's awesome when you best someone who is overconfident.
I'm a fan of you approach, just honestly trying to get you to open up to other ideas is all.

 
I hear ya. That's actually a pretty good story and I know we are similar in that regard. I've heard all of those things that you indicated you heard in that vehicle and it makes you shake your head. It's awesome when you best someone who is overconfident.
I'm a fan of you approach, just honestly trying to get you to open up to other ideas is all.
I've already been there. My dad was sponsored by Rockford back in the early mid 90s when they still cared. I grew up in this stuff. I got out of it when I left home in 2002 but had to come back when I was ready. A lot has changed.

 
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