Seeking Simple Wisdom

[Turpy]

Hi everyone! I hope that you are all safe and healthy!!

Being cooped up at home, I decided to finally get around to building an enclosure for a sub that I bought about 10 years ago. It's a JL Audio 10W0v3 (10" - 4ohm - 300watt) sub (https://www.jlaudio.com/products/10w0v3-4-car-audio-w0v3-subwoofers-92165), that I plan to drive with a 20+ year old Bazooka EL2150 300wat (bridged @ 4 ohms) amp.

I have two vehicles, a 2008 Ford F-350 Super Duty Crew Cab (full back seats which fold up)

and a 2015 Ford Escape with a ton of hatch-back room

Ideally, I'd like to make the best sounding enclosure for great bass with all kinds of music for everyday listening (no competition or anything - as if...), that I could easily move into either vehicle as desired.

On the sub's webpage (above), they list and show the exact dimensions for both a sealed and ported enclosure (they suggest that a sealed enclosure is smaller and better for all-around response). So, I assume that a sealed enclosure will give me the most flexibility in my multiple vehicle design, and I'd most like mount the amp directly to the enclosure itself (unless that's a bad idea for some reason).

Please have a look at the website if you're so inclined, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts and advice!

Thanks, and have a safe and happy weekend!

Click to read more...

 

[Popwarhomie 5,000+ posts]

It's do-able but would be a PITA. Do either of these vehicles have aftermarket headunits? Or are they both 100% stock?

 

[Turpy]

Both are 100% stock. While I'm not opposed to replacing the head units with aftermarket, I realize that's not the part that makes it a PITA. I was thinking of running the power, remote and rca's to the back of each vehicle, and then having some sort of quick-connect adapters so that I could simply connect/disconnect in minutes.

My main concern is the shape and which box to build. I could build a basic rectangular box, or a long & tall thin one. Since the Escape will hold anything, I feel like I should focus on making it fit snugly in this area of the F-350:

 

[Turpy]

Also, a box with their exact dimensions below would fit within this space, but should the sealed box be exactly like that, or can it be modified as long as the interior volume remains at least 0.65 cu ft? And, is that simply the minimum interior volume, or should the interior volume be as close to 0.65 cu ft for the best sound and broad response?

 

[Popwarhomie 5,000+ posts]

Was just curious as to how you were going to run RCAs to the rear of both vehicles without a headunit that has RCA outputs.
Quick connects for the power,ground, and remote wouldn’t be too hard.

 

[Lasherž]

Also, a box with their exact dimensions below would fit within this space, but should the sealed box be exactly like that, or can it be modified as long as the interior volume remains at least 0.65 cu ft? And, is that simply the minimum interior volume, or should the interior volume be as close to 0.65 cu ft for the best sound and broad response?View attachment 21593

With sealed enclosure the only important dimensions are that it has to physically fit the subwoofer's basket + an inch for venting. If it doesn't have vent holes from the magnet you can get even closer (but touching the other side of the box isn't very good). The rest you're free to use whatever dimensions to achieve the proper space. Also in a sealed enclosure as you go smaller you turn the sub into an air cushion suspension where you get worse and worse efficiency (worse than sealed already is which is the single worst efficiency box type besides free air) and as you get larger than their recommendation you end going towards an infinite baffle setup where the subwoofer is freer to flex, but also freer to hit xmax if you go too far with it. The measurements that manufacturers recommend are generally to get the best of both worlds. In terms of sealed enclosures you're going to get a very even response curve with no peaks, which is the best for any instrumental music and especially kick drums and bass guitars, but not too good for deep tone hip hop and rap music.

With ported they tend to be bigger and those are actually tuned to a certain frequency which is where the peak occurs. A lot of cheap ported boxes are tuned to 35hz which will sound good with deep tone hip hop and rap music, but sound muddy for bass guitars especially. The main advantage to ported is that you get way more effiency and thus can make more noise with a smaller amp and subwoofer rating, but the disadvantage is instrumentals.

If both of your cars have great default audio like maybe a full range bose system then you'd probably be happy with just the ported since it'll fill in a lot of blank space and presumably the bose subwoofer will fill in the higher bass portion. However, if either of them lacks thump on a kick drum or doesn't allow bass guitars to shine through the rest of the music then sealed is really something else in terms of quality but you'll never shake the mirrors off.

In terms of the quick-swapping of the subwoofer from one the other there's some caveats you might have to be aware of. One is that you'll have to have two LOCs, one for each vehicle because tapping speakers unless you make a custom adapter might take a while. Two is that the settings between the vehicles are going to have to change. You've got two very different sized cabs and sound will behave differently and the signal source is also going to be different, so on that amp that's going to be screwed on to the sub you'll have to have known-preset settings for each to avoid potential clipping. If you got two active LOCs you might be able to just match those instead of the amplifiers for added convenience, although presumably the high pass filter is going to be different in each vehicle as the stock speakers won't be exactly the same and will have different frequencies they perform down to before they need the support of a sub.

 

[Turpy]

Thanks. I'll stick with a sealed box then, cause I'm after sound quality rather than "loudness". Also, the amp has a high level input, but I'd need to find (or fashion) 2 plugs, one for each vehicle. That way I eliminate the need for rca's and LOC's.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

you are not gonna get anything worthwhile with a sealed box in an f350's acoustics nor any kind of bass with a chopped up signal to an LOC from a factory head unit. We have hundreds of newbies posting about why doesnt their subwoofer produce enough bass every other week and its always the line out convertor and factory head unit or its the enclosure. This has been an on going gag for all the year's i've been on this forum and the solution is still the same. You need to take care of your signal first and foremost with a dedicated RCA output giving a full bass signal. 2nd you need an enclosure design that works best in the truck that has minimal loading walls Bass needs to load off a solid wall in a vehicle in order to generate enough audible sound pressure levels to make installing a sub worth it or else you'll be lucky to be louder than your door speakers.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

reason why is all stock head units have their built in EQ curves along with built in high pass crossovers, yes even the rear speakers. They do that because they use cheap garbage stock speakers and they boost EQ frequencies and block bass frequencies to protect the speaker and make it sound better than it should be. Now what happens when you get an LOC like an audiocontrol LC2I? you are amping up a chopped up, nonexistent signal in the bass frequencies and now all you get is a distorted garbage weak signal thats not only sounding horrid but bad for your equipment health in the long run. Definitely swap the head unit with dedicated RCA outputs, 4 volts or higher, along with quality 24 bit dacs or install a DSP that can de-equalize and signal sum to give you a flat clean signal.

 

[fithwheel]

With ported they tend to be bigger and those are actually tuned to a certain frequency which is where the peak occurs. A lot of cheap ported boxes are tuned to 35hz which will sound good with deep tone hip hop and rap music, but sound muddy for bass guitars especially. The main advantage to ported is that you get way more effiency and thus can make more noise with a smaller amp and subwoofer rating, but the disadvantage is instrumentals.

If both of your cars have great default audio like maybe a full range bose system then you'd probably be happy with just the ported since it'll fill in a lot of blank space and presumably the bose subwoofer will fill in the higher bass portion. However, if either of them lacks thump on a kick drum or doesn't allow bass guitars to shine through the rest of the music then sealed is really something else in terms of quality but you'll never shake the mirrors off.


Can you please explain these 2 paragraphs in more detail? Like why would he use a cheap ported enclosure when he said he wants to build one? So if he built one it would sound the same as a cheap one? Can you not build a ported box designed to have sound quality? Seems like home audio guys can do it why can’t car audio guys build them? Can’t ya just take the cabin gain into consideration and use it to your advantage and design it to have a flat response with better extension than a sealed box with the right sub of course. I don’t want to generalize. Seems like ya wouldn’t necessarily want to use an spl sub or some cheap poorly designed driver or one that favors or is designed for a sealed enclosure I mean I don’t know just guessing
What does it mean make more noise and disadvantage is instrumental? Are you saying ported can’t be musical?
Great default audio like a Bose system? Use a Bose sub for higher bass?
Great default audio what do you mean exactly? and use a Bose sub as a mid bass driver?
Just trying to learn if ya don’t mind

 

[Lasherž]

Can you please explain these 2 paragraphs in more detail? Like why would he use a cheap ported enclosure when he said he wants to build one?

He wouldn't, I just use prefabs as an example of ported performance. You can make them better, but the entire point is to get the resonance in the range you desire. In the case of a prefab it's usually 35hz because that allows cheap systems to sound deeper than their power ratings would imply, regardless of the quality. The failure of prefabs is mainly in the construction quality, there's a lot of losses, it's not sealed very well, there's no bracing, the box vibrates, it doesn't contour to a trunk because it's generic. Each of these things contributes to less volume overall compared to a well made ported box with the purpose in mind.

Can you not build a ported box designed to have sound quality?

You can, but at what frequency are you choosing? You choose the frequency based on the shortcomings of the rest of your system, no? Point being that ported isn't the best box type to get the widest range of frequencies at a high quality. If you were to watch a sub in slow motion in two different enclosures, ported and sealed, the ported will return to center slower than the same model subwoofer will in a sealed enclosure. This means fast and deep music like hard style techno would be sloppier, whereas the sealed would give you the best chance of those beats sounding concise as intended by the song. The quality of a ported exists in lower tones predominately unless tuned to a higher tone specifically, but then you risk a lack of dampening on lower notes so you're once again stuck choosing a frequency to shine.

Seems like home audio guys can do it why can’t car audio guys build them?

I've built ported enclosures. They do what they do best.

Can’t ya just take the cabin gain into consideration and use it to your advantage and design it to have a flat response with better extension than a sealed box with the right sub of course.

Yes, if you have a single vehicle (he does not) and the means and the know-how, you can peak in a productive range with ported chosen for the cab, but the other speakers are still the more important determinant factor in what range you want to aim within and ported is still limited to lower ranges unless you want to lose a lot of volume at lower frequencies in order to avoid bottoming out the driver (under dampened).

Seems like ya wouldn’t necessarily want to use an spl sub or some cheap poorly designed driver or one that favors or is designed for a sealed enclosure

Not sure what you mean about the SPL sub, but a cheap poorly designed driver is bad in either, maybe you'd be correct to say it's worse in sealed enclosures because venting isn't as productive in a sealed environment and the coils will get hotter per watt. Higher frequencies also tend to be more noticeably bad when they are, hence why most multi-channel amplifiers aren't class D, so assuming your ported enclosure is tuned not to under dampen it's less obvious that you have a so-so sub.

What does it mean make more noise and disadvantage is instrumental? Are you saying ported can’t be musical?

Instrumentals don't produce the 35hz synth beats that rap music does, a kick drum is often the lowest note, which is anywhere from 50-100hz. Bass guitars by contrast are quite a bit higher in most songs, like 80-250. More noise than sealed, in which half the output is lost and the dampening also detracts from the excursion. Ported enclosures are louder than sealed at every frequency just by allowing air to move rather than simply compress.

Great default audio like a Bose system? Use a Bose sub for higher bass? Great default audio what do you mean exactly? and use a Bose sub as a mid bass driver?

Great as in broad range I suppose, if there's a subwoofer included in the car it's likely 8" or 10" and struggles with lower tones, but does a decent job at higher tones. If you can leave the mid-bass up to the Bose, you'll be able to add in a strong well-tuned ported subwoofer to fill in the only part of the music that you're missing. If however they didn't have a standard subwoofer included then they'd want an enclosure capable of mid-bass. If you're listening to instrumental music then 35hz is less important than mid-bass, particularly if there's a dip where the mid-bass belongs or there's an under-dampened sub trying to produce it.

Just trying to learn if ya don’t mind

Ain't no thing but a chicken wing.

 

[fithwheel]

Idk about all that. Seems like it wouldn’t be too hard to design a ported box that has low group delay and a wide bandwidth with the proper driver.I mean I’m only really concerned with a narrow bandwidth anyway. I know I don’t want my subs playing mid bass.
I think you might be a little off on what frequencies a bass guitar can play they cover a pretty wide range lower and higher than what you said. Maybe off on a few other things as well idk.
I think generalized statements are misleading. They sure can be poorly designed no doubt and sound like crap.
“Most multi channel amplifiers aren’t class D” What? Seems like most are going class D to me. Got a few hanging on to ab I guess
If I had a Bose system I’d probably **** can the whole thing.
If I was op I’d just build two separate systems anyways
That ******* cat’s annoying

 

[Lasherž]

I’m only really concerned with a narrow bandwidth anyway. I know I don’t want my subs playing mid bass.

If I had a Bose system I’d probably **** can the whole thing.

It's almost as if it wasn't posted in direct response to what you want given that you hadn't posted yet.

Seems like it wouldn’t be too hard to design a ported box that has low group delay and a wide bandwidth with the proper driver.

Feel free to post the dimensions. If you want wide bandwidth and more efficiency than sealed maybe it's time to do a dissertation on bandpass enclosures on this other guy's post.

“Most multi channel amplifiers aren’t class D” What? Seems like most are going class D to me.

More than half of the ones on Crutchfield not meant to shove behind your head unit and forget about. Idk, I've never wanted to own a class D 4 channel personally, the quality difference is apparent and is efficiency that big of a deal sub 100W a channel? Put another way, why do 5 channel amps often have 4x class AB and 1x D?

If I was op I’d just build two separate systems anyways

I think most people would, me included. But I keep my responses within the confines of what is asked because shitting on ideas should be left to their significant other.

Idk about all that.

I don't doubt that.

I think you might be a little off on what frequencies a bass guitar can play they cover a pretty wide range lower and higher than what you said.

Maybe you should reread what I said, "Bass guitars by contrast are quite a bit higher in most songs, like 80-250."

Maybe off on a few other things as well idk.

Skepticism is good, but contrarianism is a waste of time. "Just trying to learn if ya don’t mind"

That ******* cat’s annoying

Based on its expression, I don't think it gives a ****.

 

[fithwheel]

It's almost as if it wasn't posted in direct response to what you want given that you hadn't posted yet.
Op said sound quality playing mid bass through subs and Bose system generally wouldn’t fit the sound quality goals

Feel free to post the dimensions. If you want wide bandwidth and more efficiency than sealed maybe it's time to do a dissertation on bandpass enclosures on this other guy's post.
Don’t know what post you’re referring too.

More than half of the ones on Crutchfield not meant to shove behind your head unit and forget about. Idk, I've never wanted to own a class D 4 channel personally, the quality difference is apparent and is efficiency that big of a deal sub 100W a channel? Put another way, why do 5 channel amps often have 4x class AB and 1x D?
Most are older designs. There are crap designed class d as well as class ab. There’s also well designed class d that sound just as good as a well designed ab. Many would agree.

I think most people would, me included. But I keep my responses within the confines of what is asked because shitting on ideas should be left to their significant other.
How’s that shitting on an idea?
If I was to say well that’s a dumb ******* idea that would be shitting on an idea.
I don’t think I’d be going out on a limb to suggest that the idea would get old fast a be a general pita. In all likelihood 2 separate systems are bound to happen sooner or later

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

general assumptions about box design types without factoring in cabin gain is dangerous. Without a proper loading wall you will get absolutely no bass. Massive cancellation issues in a truck, going sealed is pretty much bass suicide. The type of woofer used has to match with it too. The Theile small parameters used to calculated the efficiency bandwidth product will tell you if the sub can thrive in a ported or sealed or 4th order or 6th order or 1/4 wave transmission line etc... Not every sub will sound good in a sealed, in fact most higher powered subs nowadays hot on the market are absolute garbage in sealed(extremely stiff suspension, high FS, high motorforce aka BL, low QTS high EBP and some sealed boxspecific subs (softer suspension, lower FS, shorting rings higher QTS, low EBP etc...)

Sealed box would only work in one of his cars. while it'll be completely and utterly useless in the truck. Anyone that's tried a sealed box in a truck knows how finicky the cabin gain works with no real loading walls.