Batteries are over rated

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

I'm sure they work well enough with a HO alternator and 2K amp. They may even be comparable to a couple additional AGMs in the trunk for daily music listening.

It's worrying that OP hasn't really posted any measurements or specific price tags or any other hard data with which we can compare and contrast.

I just look at what the guys with the big systems are running. Not a guy who is running a 2,400 (rated) watt amp.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I just look at what the guys with the big systems are running.

There were a couple big builds using huge cap banks when they first became a meme, and a friend of mine who used to be active on this board a lot does run dual alternators plus a couple banks.

I'd really like OP to come back and try to quantify how his strategy is the best and prove once and forever that batteries are obsolete, but I think he is late to the party on discovering those. Maxwell caps are old news and there's a reason they didn't take off like Lithium has.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

There were a couple big builds using huge cap banks when they first became a meme, and a friend of mine who used to be active on this board a lot does run dual alternators plus a couple banks.

I'd really like OP to come back and try to quantify how his strategy is the best and prove once and forever that batteries are obsolete, but I think he is late to the party on discovering those. Maxwell caps are old news and there's a reason they didn't take off like Lithium has.

The big systems that I've seen around Vegas are lithium and an alternator or two. My friend with the 54K system is running three alts and a lot of lithium. I've yet to see my guy recommend somebody get caps, and he's had a shop for 30 years. HO alt and lithium are the only thing that he recommends anymore. My truck with an AGM and a 320 alt still needs a bank of lithium to run 3K.

 

[Fishchris]

No doubt lithiums are awesome batteries, with very high power to weight ratios. And I totally agree that a high powered alternator (or 2, or 4 with a nice strong lithium bank is a great way to go. Still, their is no doubt in my mind that keeping all of that < but adding some nice super capacitors will add dynamic range to the music, by giving more instantaneous power bursts. Lithium is definitely "faster" at making juice, than lead acid / AGM's, but its not even close to a super capacitor.

Really, I can only think of one (well kind of two) advantages to creating a ton of power, and running a bunch of supercaps, with no actual batteries... 1) Is that you will always see voltage drop when a big system is being beat really hard.... Albeit much less with lithium, than with lead acid. Whereas, "if" you can make enough power (meaning, making more continuously, than your system will use at full tilt... although a bunch of caps will add a little buffer) to begin with, you would see "zero voltage drop".
2) You would have something that few (no ?) others do

BTW, I mentioned it earlier, and I won't bother to go into any detail, but I do know how a large, strong vehicle could make enough amps continuously, to power a 60 or 80K system. It would take about 100 to 150hp from the motor though. A big strong diesel motor would probably be the best, to do that without having to revved too high. So far as I know, this has never been done for a high powered car stereo system. But its done all the time in industrial vehicles, for other purposes.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

There were a couple big builds using huge cap banks when they first became a meme, and a friend of mine who used to be active on this board a lot does run dual alternators plus a couple banks.

I'd really like OP to come back and try to quantify how his strategy is the best and prove once and forever that batteries are obsolete, but I think he is late to the party on discovering those. Maxwell caps are old news and there's a reason they didn't take off like Lithium has.

I think that he works for Down 4 Sound.

 

[Fishchris]

No. I don’t work for down4sound, but so what if I did ? Nothing but respect for JP. The guy knows a ton, and his Tahoe is freaking incredible.
Anyway, there is just no reason to be hating ass dickheads. It really makes me wonder how many more people would participate in this forum, and maybe have some positive things to add, if you few ******** would just be friendly, and welcoming. Do people have to think exactly like you, for you to be okay with them ? Are you like the ******* thought police? Also, I don’t know why moderators would tolerate that kind of attitude and rudeness in the first place ?
Anyway, I am a very friendly, positive guy myself. I’m not really bothered much by a few internet fucktards. And I wouldn’t let that stop me from visiting a forum. On the other hand, obviously time spent on a forum should be more good than bad.
Bottom line, if you don’t like the stuff I post, don’t read it.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

, "if" you can make enough power (meaning, making more continuously, than your system will use at full tilt... although a bunch of caps will add a little buffer) to begin with, you would see "zero voltage drop".

That's a pretty big "IF" there.

super capacitors will add dynamic range to the music, by giving more instantaneous power bursts

Or at your power level you could have just invested in good amps with regulated power supply and this would be a non-issue.

You're really grasping at straws here. Now can you quantify some audible difference with and without supercaps on say a 2500W system with HO alternator and just an upgraded AGM under the hood or that + supercaps? You may use RTA, termlab, or oscilloscope readings.

I do know how a large, strong vehicle could make enough amps continuously, to power a 60 or 80K system.

Towing around one of these bad boys?

Bottom line, if you don’t like the stuff I post, don’t read it.

I don't know at whom this is directed. For my part I'm just trying to get you to post some proof of your claim.

 

[YourNameHere 10+ year member]

I would also like to see some physical proof and not ignorant claims about these super duper duper ultra mega caps

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

I agree with supercaps being useful. Really it all comes down to how you set your system up. The super caps can help on the extreme end of the system. You have to remember to that not everyone is playing the same thing with their system, and that can make a huge difference with electrical. Some people are playing in the 10's and 20's hz region, and that's a whole different ball game than burping at 70 hz.

Just having alts and AGM's can make a system work well. Having alts and lithium can work well. Having little alt and lithium actually seems to work well, surprisingly well, from what people have told me. I really think alts and lithium and super caps is just next level.

You just line up the charge/discharge rate towards the amps: alt (slowest to react) -> batteries (depends on discharge) -> caps (almost certainly faster than anything else) -> amps. So what you're doing is creating a multi-level electrical dampening system, where in stages each component can feed the caps, essentially, which feeds the amps. That amp will get exactly what it wants, because the caps can always charge off the lithium, and the alts will charge the lithium however much it's needed. Those caps should technically help with initial voltage drops, due to any change in frequency or volume. Caps also might be a good noise filter, in a way. They might help clean the power up, so might the battery as well. That may possibly be another reason to do that, is prevent any kind of noise, because the alts ultimately produce the power in AC current. The batteries and caps I think would probably help filter out any alt noise that makes it in 12v form, or whatever. The alt is pulsing it's 12v power at a certain frequency (because it's spinning), where the DC batteries and caps aren't pulsing the 12v, it's constant, which means the amps aren't getting as much pulsed 12v into the power wire. Caps really help filter that, because of their high charge/discharge rate.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Batteries won't filter the DC pulses from the alt, because, usually, they're at a higher voltage, so the pulse is a higher voltage than what the battery is offering, so the amps will eat the pulsed 12v voltage from your alt. BUT, the caps probably can charge higher than the batteries, and they can also probably charge as high as your alt. So, the caps would capture those 12v pulses from the alt, that are higher voltages than the battery, and possibly smooth that out, where the amp's current is less pulsed from the alt, and more smooth from the caps. You'd just have to see if your equipment meets those standards or not for that to happen.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

That alt pulsation will eventually make it into your subs, to some extent, if it's not filtered out. I can show the waveform of an alt. Let me see if I can find an example.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Your alt power comes out in some form of pulsed DC current, and it varies I'm sure. But the green line is the pulse. So if you're charging a 12v system at 14.4v, it's pulsing 14.4v, it's not a constant 14.4v, it's 14.4v at a certain frequency. That's how you get alternator whine, and that's why it gets worse when you rev the engine up, because you're spinning the alt faster, creating a higher frequency alt pulsation.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

How many phases an alt charges in changes that pulsation, because the waves are all evenly divided, just like a 3 phase electric motor does. That can change the DC pulse, how many phases the alt charges in, I assume. It's just how the wires are wrapped internally and how the magnets are geometrically placed and the number of the magnets and where the poles are. I'm not sure who does what and how with their alts lol, there's different ways to do it.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Here's a 3 phase alt, simplified a bunch:

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

IMO, those really good caps are going to have the best chance at filtering that pulse out before it enters the amp. If not, the amps are using a pulsating/slightly varying current voltage from the power wires, to whatever extent. It should help balance the amp out, because that voltage pulse fluctuation causes also a current fluctuation within the amp, to whatever extent. It's probably minimal, but it just depends on how hardcore you wanna be. I would do both power and ground from the amps directly to the caps. If you ground to the frame, maybe ground the batteries to the frame, and use the caps to feed the amps completely.