Bobbytwonames
5,000+ posts
Trigger Man!
The caps are alright until you turn your car off. I'd rather do a battery delete and run lithium. Haven't even charged it yet.
Bobbytwonames
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
I've heard that people who have enough caps don't even need batteries or a single battery to start their car. I don't think all caps discharge when the vehicle is off, I could be wrong.
Bobbytwonames
5,000+ posts
Trigger Man!
I meant playing his stereo with his car turned off.
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
Yeah, very possible caps could be a strain when the vehicle is off. I'm not sure.
That's why it's important to just set your system up for how you plan to use it.
- Thread Starter
- #80
Okay, now we are talking
Well, its hard to find good info on the "capacitance" of quality amps vs. cheap ones. One would expect this to be better with high quality amps... and I think it is, but only to a small degree. And it probably has less to do with cost, than it does space. Imagine trying to physically fit a 500 farad super cacitor inside of a car audio amplifier ? Their is a reason my 500 farad super cap is the size of a small automotive battery.
I've read a bunch of things that say increasing the speed of power delivery is a good thing, that makes audible differences.... But it's not like I saved a link to every one of those citings (as if I were writing a scientific journal
Instead, after like the 79th positive thing I read, I decided to try it for myself.... And yes. It really does make a difference with kick drums and any kind of fast, snappy bass hits. (dynamic headroom). I could "see" these differences with my clip indicator as well, as far as being able to push this kind of bass an extra click or two, before I started to see any red flickering.And remember what I said earlier.... Even Steve Meade talked about super caps this way, after he added a 2000 fards of capacitance to his 30Kwt system (and this is in spite of the fact that he removed four of his big batteries to do it ! (still don't know why he did that ?)
Now wait.... You might be thinking, "But I don't like batteries, and now I'm flip flopping"..... But here's the thing. I don't "prefer battery storage"..... But SMD has a 30Kwt system "and he only makes" like 1500 amps continuously, so in his system, like most big systems, he has no choice but to store a bunch of juice.
Here is a good video on super caps that talks about all this too:
Hey, the industrial generator you posted the pics of would be kind of funny.... but I have a really big idea that I'm confident, could make 5000 or more amps continuously, and easily fit in a full sized truck (bed). And considering the amount of money spent on some of these BIG show systems, it really wouldn't be any crazier than some of those.
Peace
- Thread Starter
- #81
Hey Buck, I totally appreciate all that info... If only I were smart enough to make since of it all
lol I did read over all of it though, and unless I missed it, what about the "speed of delivery" of supercaps vs. AGM or Lithium batts ? This is what I thought made the biggest difference ?
- Thread Starter
- #82
From what I read before hand, and what I'm experiencing now, the caps will stay perfectly balanced to whatever the voltage of your battery is (be it lead acid, or lithium) So if I have a strong fresh AGM thats resting at 12.9 volts, my caps will also rest at 12.9 volts.
BTW, here's another thing that is really hard to prove.... and maybe, completely in my head, but when starting my big 5.4L V8, this feels stronger too.
- Thread Starter
- #83
I NEVER do this. It drives me crazy when my alternator is hot (or my ECU thinks my battery is full enough) and it only charges at 13.8 volts.... let alone having the truck not running, and starting at 12.8 and quickly dropping from there ! Ah hell no
lolNothing better for my system, than the alt being cool, and charging at 14.5 volts, even with me beating the shit out of it
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
For a reference:
I had a 300 amp alt charging at about 15v (ext v reg), I had 3x 100ah powerware group 31 AGM's in the back (omg you wanna talk about heavy lulz). I had a batcap 3000 under the front hood. 4 runs of 250 amp zero gauge, 2 power - 2 ground. No amps ground to frame. All closed loop to alt.
My amps together were rated at 2400w @ 2 ohms strapped @ 12.6v. One amp bench tested at 1380w @ 13.8v. Most of the time I wouldn't drop below 13.5-13.8v at full tilt. Most of the time. My 13 cube box was a hair to big to play above 65 hz or so, electrically. Tuned to 29 hz, and having a slightly oversized box, my subs really started unloading in the mid 60's, but could easily play into the 70's, as far as frequency response went.
I was running those amps strapped at a final 1.4 ohm load. My amps would very quickly cut on and off if I was playing below 25 hz, and if there was a super quick transition to a higher note, or if a punch happened. Rarely did it though, and the amps would come right back on without me doing anything. Kind of a like a little fart that means nothing haha.
But when I went to play above about 65 without the 12 db/oct slope I set up, my voltage would dip way down into the 11's!!!
Even with 380 AH of batteries, and a legit as F 300 amp alt charging at almost 15v, I would still drop into the 11's, basically because my box was too big. So just my box alone killed my voltage at high frequencies, because of port tuning frequency, and more because of the box being a hair too big (which is fine I wanted it that way). So there's some thoughts about what frequency you're playing and how it can effect your electrical.
If your sub is flapping around wildly, your voltage is gonna pay the price. Better get good amps with good dampening factors LOL
I had a 300 amp alt charging at about 15v (ext v reg), I had 3x 100ah powerware group 31 AGM's in the back (omg you wanna talk about heavy lulz). I had a batcap 3000 under the front hood. 4 runs of 250 amp zero gauge, 2 power - 2 ground. No amps ground to frame. All closed loop to alt.
My amps together were rated at 2400w @ 2 ohms strapped @ 12.6v. One amp bench tested at 1380w @ 13.8v. Most of the time I wouldn't drop below 13.5-13.8v at full tilt. Most of the time. My 13 cube box was a hair to big to play above 65 hz or so, electrically. Tuned to 29 hz, and having a slightly oversized box, my subs really started unloading in the mid 60's, but could easily play into the 70's, as far as frequency response went.
I was running those amps strapped at a final 1.4 ohm load. My amps would very quickly cut on and off if I was playing below 25 hz, and if there was a super quick transition to a higher note, or if a punch happened. Rarely did it though, and the amps would come right back on without me doing anything. Kind of a like a little fart that means nothing haha.
But when I went to play above about 65 without the 12 db/oct slope I set up, my voltage would dip way down into the 11's!!!
Even with 380 AH of batteries, and a legit as F 300 amp alt charging at almost 15v, I would still drop into the 11's, basically because my box was too big. So just my box alone killed my voltage at high frequencies, because of port tuning frequency, and more because of the box being a hair too big (which is fine I wanted it that way). So there's some thoughts about what frequency you're playing and how it can effect your electrical.
If your sub is flapping around wildly, your voltage is gonna pay the price. Better get good amps with good dampening factors LOL
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
x2, that makes logical sense. You amp has capacitors as well inside, and that's certainly how they function too. The caps will charge with whatever power source they have available.
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
Hey Buck, I totally appreciate all that info... If only I were smart enough to make since of it all
I did read over all of it though, and unless I missed it, what about the "speed of delivery" of supercaps vs. AGM or Lithium batts ? This is what I thought made the biggest difference ?
That's the charge and discharge rate.
Your alt is putting out pulses of voltage. So we'll take my alt. I always charged close to 15v, usually 14.8-15v. So my batteries rested at 12.6-12.8v.
The alt charges in pulses, the alt actually creates AC current, that is then filtered by diodes into DC current. BUT, the DC current is pulsating, it's not constant DC current like a battery alone provides.
So the alt is sending out rapid pulses of DC current at 15v or so, and the amp is going to use that pulsing 15v charge to produce the amplified signal sound to the subs, probably largely through transistors. The pulsing of that 15v coming from the alt, that will cause pulsing variations of DC voltage going into your amp. So your amp is constantly getting pulsing DC current from the alt, instead of getting a smooth, non-pulse power current from something like a battery would do.
That current from the alt and voltage pulses at a fast rate, because the alt spins fast, and if it's a 3 phase, there's many pulses happening per second. That's where the charge and discharge rate, plus the high voltage capacity of the capacitors comes into place.
The caps can capture that higher voltage pulse from the alternator(s), and feed the amps a more constant 12v power-signal, vs a pulsed varying voltage power-signal at a high frequency that's coming from that alt. It's like pulsing from 15v to 12.6 back to 15v very very quickly, that's why charge/discharge rate on caps matters, gotta be fast enough to catch the pulse and dampen it. That way, your amp isn't constantly having to do very quick minor adjustments in voltage and current to provide the same voltage for your sub woofers.
The capacitors are so fast in their dealing with electricity (charge and discharge), that they can filter 12v pulsations within a system, and provide the amps with a pure, non-varying 12v power source, so your amps aren't fluctuating both amps and volts within themselves, and the power output to the subs is more consistent and more controlled.
The caps can take the pulsed DC waveform (which is varying voltage), and smooth it out to give your amp smooth electrical food, instead of pulsed electrical food:
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
DC current is a flat line, you want your amps to be powered by the flat sustained voltage:
Alternators put a slight varying voltage waveform into the 12v system, and that can cause your amp to constantly varying in it's output because of the rapid changing of voltage. The blue wave is the pulsating 12v DC of varying voltage that your alt puts out:
Alternators put a slight varying voltage waveform into the 12v system, and that can cause your amp to constantly varying in it's output because of the rapid changing of voltage. The blue wave is the pulsating 12v DC of varying voltage that your alt puts out:
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
So ultimately, you'd want to use caps, IMO, to dampen the higher voltage alt pulsations, so that the amps get a steadier voltage supply. That means the caps help turn the pulsating signal into a flat signal, which means better consistency and stability within the system.
Buck
5,000+ posts
little alien on campus
Hey Buck, I totally appreciate all that info... If only I were smart enough to make since of it all
I did read over all of it though, and unless I missed it, what about the "speed of delivery" of supercaps vs. AGM or Lithium batts ? This is what I thought made the biggest difference ?
The charge and discharge rate is related to internal resistance of the batteries or caps. So caps have a seemingly unparalleled charge and discharge rate, which you need a very high rate of energy transfer to be able to capture and smooth out that pulsation coming from the alt. That alt pulsation happens very rapidly, and you need a rapid charge and discharge for the caps to actually capture the alt pulses quickly enough, before they make their way into the amp(s).
Kickstand
Premium Member
CarAudio.com Veteran
So one of the systems I had was in a 2007 Cobalt SS/SC which I bought brand new.
The thing came with a 110 amp alt in it
This was a major roadblock when building the system.
Since the car had only been in production for a couple of years and the supercharged versions on made up 15% of that finding a new alt was a challenge.
I contacted every company I possibly could and no one would touch it and I was not willing to do a rewind on it.
There was a guy on another forum that had the same car that had a bracket made to add a second alt but it only worked with the stock alts.
That's still only 220 amps but still better than nothing
So after spending $1500 (Can) on getting a new alt, tensioner, belt and the bracket made and the labour to have it all installed plus adding a Kinetik HC1800 it still wasn't enough to stop my amp from going into protect from voltage drop (Saz 3000D) (2x DD3512)
So I added a second HC1800
THis stopped the amp from going into protect but it still wasn't enough to properly run the system.
Eventually I had to give up on that setup and go back to my old one which was a DDM2 with 2x DD2512
Still a good system but damn it I wanted more
I didn't even really get to break in the 3512's
So sometimes big alts are not the answer or just not possible
This was all in like 2008/2009
If Lithium and super caps were around or maybe they were around but they were not out there to easily get. It would have probably solved my problem.
The thing came with a 110 amp alt in it
This was a major roadblock when building the system.
Since the car had only been in production for a couple of years and the supercharged versions on made up 15% of that finding a new alt was a challenge.
I contacted every company I possibly could and no one would touch it and I was not willing to do a rewind on it.
There was a guy on another forum that had the same car that had a bracket made to add a second alt but it only worked with the stock alts.
That's still only 220 amps but still better than nothing
So after spending $1500 (Can) on getting a new alt, tensioner, belt and the bracket made and the labour to have it all installed plus adding a Kinetik HC1800 it still wasn't enough to stop my amp from going into protect from voltage drop (Saz 3000D) (2x DD3512)
So I added a second HC1800
THis stopped the amp from going into protect but it still wasn't enough to properly run the system.
Eventually I had to give up on that setup and go back to my old one which was a DDM2 with 2x DD2512
Still a good system but damn it I wanted more
I didn't even really get to break in the 3512's
So sometimes big alts are not the answer or just not possible
This was all in like 2008/2009
If Lithium and super caps were around or maybe they were around but they were not out there to easily get. It would have probably solved my problem.
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