Newbie Requesting help

[Maky 10+ year member]

Hello Everyone,

I just joined the forums a short while ago and am here hoping to learn more about car audio & hopefully along the way find a solution to my currently faced issues. A short Intro...

I used to heavily be into car audio when I was a teen, I was a member of ECA - Elite Car Audio forums back then but I think the site is now gone, then I lost interest(also knowledge) when I got into my early twenties. Now, past 27 circumstances have once again sparked my interest in after-market car audio.

Now, I bought a new Suzuki Swift hatchback a year ago with dealer-end Installed car audio system but it hadn't been to my satisfaction!. The sound was absolutely flat and there was no 'life' to music that was played. So I decided to upgrade the door speakers, which turned out to be something made by JVC to Pioneer components, put a pair of Pioneer 6x9s on the rear parcel shelf and power it by a 4-Channel Pioneer amplifier. The sound was still not impressive enough, although overall sounding significantly better than the earlier setup, when it came to bass.

I didn't want to spend a lot more money so my friend told me I could have his old Pioneer Subwoofer(DVC 4 Ohm) which he hadn't used for many years and bridge all channels of the 4 Ch to it instead of the speakers.

I hooked up his old subwoofer(sealed) and the bass is noticeable higher however now my problem is that I have not enough kick or punch i.e. the vibes you get when bass notes are played that shake the car and you : ).

The 4-Ch amplifier is rated for 180W RMS x 2 when bridged & the Subwoofer rates at 750W RMS and 2000W Max.

HU: Sony XAV-64BT

Front: Pioneer TS-A1605C

Rear: Pioneer TS-A6965R

Sub: Pioneer TS-W121SPL

Amplifier: Pioneer GM-A6604

Is the reason for lack of vibrations during bass play the result of less RMS than needed going to the subwoofer or do I have some other issues?

Any help is greatly appreciated : ).

Thanks in Advance.

Click to read more...

 

[mylows10 5,000+ posts]

Not the right amp for a sub first off. And you might need a ported box for more bass

 

[Maky 10+ year member]

Not the right amp for a sub first off. And you might need a ported box for more bass

Thanks for the quick reply!

I've been told about the amp not being ideal for a subwoofer. So I'm prepared to spend more money on a mono block if it would result in a noticeable difference.

Would this make a significant difference than my current setup? and Is ported the only way to get a kick in my back when the bass hits? or with a sealed is possible as well? It was my understanding that the ported boxes produce very loud but boomy bass where as a sealed is much deeper and cleaner.

I do not wish to attract eyeballs when I'm cruising but want a tight distortion-free bass mylows : ).

 

[mylows10 5,000+ posts]

Yes. If you need suggestions or prices pm me

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for the quick reply!
I've been told about the amp not being ideal for a subwoofer. So I'm prepared to spend more money on a mono block if it would result in a noticeable difference.

Would this make a significant difference than my current setup? and Is ported the only way to get a kick in my back when the bass hits? or with a sealed is possible as well? It was my understanding that the ported boxes produce very loud but boomy bass where as a sealed is much deeper and cleaner.

I do not wish to attract eyeballs when I'm cruising but want a tight distortion-free bass mylows : ).

A ported box will do everything a sealed will but do it better. But it will be twice the size. UNLESS you use a off the shelf prefab ported, they are boomy and struggle low.

 

[CSCStang]

Thanks for the quick reply!
I've been told about the amp not being ideal for a subwoofer. So I'm prepared to spend more money on a mono block if it would result in a noticeable difference.

Would this make a significant difference than my current setup? and Is ported the only way to get a kick in my back when the bass hits? or with a sealed is possible as well? It was my understanding that the ported boxes produce very loud but boomy bass where as a sealed is much deeper and cleaner.

I do not wish to attract eyeballs when I'm cruising but want a tight distortion-free bass mylows : ).

If you're wanting to run a Pioneer mono get a 9601but only with a sealed box. It has no subsonic filter. Been running one for about 8 months and it holds up very well. Stays cool too.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

If the driver data I found is correct that sub basically REQUIRES a ported box to perform reasonably well.

The amp is definitely an issue, but if you want to know what that sub will do it will require a more appropriate enclosure as well.

Bridging a 4 ch amp to run a dvc 4 ohm sub is a last resort IMO. Something you might do to buy some time and have some temporary bass. But it's definitely not good.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for the quick reply!
I've been told about the amp not being ideal for a subwoofer. So I'm prepared to spend more money on a mono block if it would result in a noticeable difference.

Would this make a significant difference than my current setup? and Is ported the only way to get a kick in my back when the bass hits? or with a sealed is possible as well? It was my understanding that the ported boxes produce very loud but boomy bass where as a sealed is much deeper and cleaner.

I do not wish to attract eyeballs when I'm cruising but want a tight distortion-free bass mylows : ).

Statement could not be any more wrong. Sealed is always unimpressive and wasted potential for a woofer. Every high end car and home audio company ports their woofers, never sealed you know why? more efficiency(power turns straight into sound energy without) and deeper bass. Sealed produces very low notes but you dont even hear it since its extremely weak. Ported can sound tight, accurate, a lot deeper and a hell of a lot louder all around the sound spectrum then sealed. What you described is a prefabrricated junk chinese cookie cutter ported box compared to a prefabricated sealed box. A proper custom ported box built around your subwoofer will make it sound miles better then a sealed box.

If you want that kick, you are gonna attract eyes anyways. Get a powerful amp, need 1000 rms on tap those old spl lines of pioneer took a bit more then rated power. Box tuned to 34-38 hz with more port area then normal. Box size should be around 2 - 2.5 cubic feet before counting in port area displacement. More port area will make it more tighter and punchy but sacrifices some low notes, tuning a bit higher helps with EDM, rock, metal, DnB, songs.

Most of these guys will tell you to tune low but thats just car flexing bass, no real kick in the chest feeling. Deeper bass(20-40hz) does not = kick in the chest, it = car violently shaking, air moving and very low audible sound. Higher hertz bass 40-60hz = kick in that chest feeling.

Normally for that kick i'd recommend a 4th order bandpass box but your sub does not work well in sealed so thats out of the picture.. You can try a 6th order bandpass but thats a lot of guesswork and test building so to be safe just stick with ported.

 

[Maky 10+ year member]

Statement could not be any more wrong. Sealed is always unimpressive and wasted potential for a woofer. Every high end car and home audio company ports their woofers, never sealed you know why? more efficiency(power turns straight into sound energy without) and deeper bass. Sealed produces very low notes but you dont even hear it since its extremely weak. Ported can sound tight, accurate, a lot deeper and a hell of a lot louder all around the sound spectrum then sealed. What you described is a prefabrricated junk chinese cookie cutter ported box compared to a prefabricated sealed box. A proper custom ported box built around your subwoofer will make it sound miles better then a sealed box.
If you want that kick, you are gonna attract eyes anyways. Get a powerful amp, need 1000 rms on tap those old spl lines of pioneer took a bit more then rated power. Box tuned to 34-38 hz with more port area then normal. Box size should be around 2 - 2.5 cubic feet before counting in port area displacement. More port area will make it more tighter and punchy but sacrifices some low notes, tuning a bit higher helps with EDM, rock, metal, DnB, songs.

Most of these guys will tell you to tune low but thats just car flexing bass, no real kick in the chest feeling. Deeper bass(20-40hz) does not = kick in the chest, it = car violently shaking, air moving and very low audible sound. Higher hertz bass 40-60hz = kick in that chest feeling.

Normally for that kick i'd recommend a 4th order bandpass box but your sub does not work well in sealed so thats out of the picture.. You can try a 6th order bandpass but thats a lot of guesswork and test building so to be safe just stick with ported.

This is very contradictory to what I was told : S. In my part of the world it would be challenging to find a skilled carpenter who would be able to build me a subwoofer-specific customised ported box however I shall go and ask around. Sealed products on the other hand, are very common.

Also, I'm still learning and re-learning, Would you explain to me what it means when you say box 'tuned to x Hz' please : ).

If the driver data I found is correct that sub basically REQUIRES a ported box to perform reasonably well.
The amp is definitely an issue, but if you want to know what that sub will do it will require a more appropriate enclosure as well.

Bridging a 4 ch amp to run a dvc 4 ohm sub is a last resort IMO. Something you might do to buy some time and have some temporary bass. But it's definitely not good.

Could you please link me to this information, would love to have a read myself.

I was following this official archived page where it mentions very explicitly 'Recommended sealed enclosure (Litres) - 42.5' under specifications.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

This is very contradictory to what I was told : S. In my part of the world it would be challenging to find a skilled carpenter who would be able to build me a subwoofer-specific customised ported box however I shall go and ask around. Sealed products on the other hand, are very common.Also, I'm still learning and re-learning, Would you explain to me what it means when you say box 'tuned to x Hz' please : ).

Building a standard rectangular ported box requires only a basic knowledge of wood working. If you can cut reasonably straight with a circular saw, cut a decent circle with a jig saw, and run a drill you can build a ported box (access to a router is a plus as well). The technical step is coming up with a good design.

"Tuned to x hz" is a standard reference to the basic features of a ported box. The box size and port size interact to produce a particular tuned frequency. Box modeling software helps organize the many different variables involved to arrive at a box size, port size and associated tuning frequency that works well with a particular sub in a particular application.

Could you please link me to this information, would love to have a read myself. I was following this official archived page where it mentions very explicitly 'Recommended sealed enclosure (Litres) - 42.5' under specifications.

Yes, I saw that recommendation as well. But the mfg doesn't always recommend the BEST enclosure. They often go with the simplest enclosure that will "work".

Yesterday I looked at several different sources for driver data but just now I came across a thorough set.

I'll plug them into winISD (modeling software) and let you know what it comes up with.

http://www.pioneer-uae.com/pdf/04Catalogue/CEGeneral2004English/04_AUDIO_p22_English.pdf

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

Yeah, definitely models better ported.

I would go as far as to say I would sell that sub before putting it in a closed box.

The 1.5cf box they recommend has an f3 of 63hz. That probably doesn't mean much to you, but it's similar to the low frequency response of a decent 6.5" door speaker.

Basically, in a sealed box that sub is useless below 40hz, and not much better at 50hz. 40-50hz is where a sub does most of its work.

However - in a ported box -- I came up with 2.0cf tuned to 34 hz -- the frequency response looks very good.

Output is pretty consistent from 30-100hz. The port size for that box would be 2" x 14" x 28" long.

Or -- in an effort to keep it simple -- you could just look for a ported box built for an alpine Type R (similar specs) and that should work well.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

This is very contradictory to what I was told : S. In my part of the world it would be challenging to find a skilled carpenter who would be able to build me a subwoofer-specific customised ported box however I shall go and ask around. Sealed products on the other hand, are very common.Also, I'm still learning and re-learning, Would you explain to me what it means when you say box 'tuned to x Hz' please : ).

Could you please link me to this information, would love to have a read myself.

I was following this official archived page where it mentions very explicitly 'Recommended sealed enclosure (Litres) - 42.5' under specifications.

You dont need to find a person to design, just to build, ill give you a link to some free box designs if you need.

As said before, manufacturers specs are not optimal for performance.

Id go with n2s suggestion since he modeled it out already. Look up how to use winisd on youtube if you want to see the graph yourself.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

It's one of Pioneer's SPL subwoofers. You may need to consider changing to a different subwoofer for better deep bass performance. A Champion Pro 12" would be nice without requiring a huge enclosure.

 

[Maky 10+ year member]

It's one of Pioneer's SPL subwoofers. You may need to consider changing to a different subwoofer for better deep bass performance. A Champion Pro 12" would be nice without requiring a huge enclosure.

It's various vendors(locally) opinion that none of the new Pioneer Subwoofers are as good as the stuff they made 8-10 years ago. I believe mine is almost that old. They say it's all "china stuff" O_O...

You dont need to find a person to design, just to build, ill give you a link to some free box designs if you need.

Would be awesome : ).

However - in a ported box -- I came up with 2.0cf tuned to 34 hz -- the frequency response looks very good.Output is pretty consistent from 30-100hz. The port size for that box would be 2" x 14" x 28" long.

Or -- in an effort to keep it simple -- you could just look for a ported box built for an alpine Type R (similar specs) and that should work well.

When you say port size is that the measurement for the cylinder/tube where air passes? Sorry I'm being very thick but I have absolutely no idea on building things : P.

I will google the Alpine Type R box as well yes.

Also, I forgot to ask in the original post. Would adding sound damping material(Dynamat is it) in the boot area help? and If so, would it make a big difference to 'kick' or a minute one.

Just to understand its value for money aspect.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

It's various vendors(locally) opinion that none of the new Pioneer Subwoofers are as good as the stuff they made 8-10 years ago. I believe mine is almost that old. They say it's all "china stuff" O_O...

That's a standard excuse that is probably said at least once every day. "They don't make them that way anymore". I don't feel that you need to stay with Pioneer, it's just a suggestion because you already have that brand in your vehicle. I don't know exactly which Pioneer car audio products you can get in your area, but I'm using the new TS-W3003D4 Champion Pro 12". I don't push my subwoofers as hard as most people, but it's doing very well for me in my system. I think it may get you the kind of sound you want a lot more than a burp box subwoofer.

Dynamat and similar materials will not do anything to make a subwoofer kick harder. That will make it sound better, but the energy is still getting wasted by the resonances of your body panels.