Time Alignment vs. Phase Shift

[cablguy184 10+ year member]

Car audio is the anti drug. By the time you get your setup to the point you think your happy with it. You have no money left for drugs even if you wanted them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I have ALOT left to do with my install ... The truck could use ALOT more TLC also ... But anyhow Its going to World Finals ready or not !!!

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

If you can get through the sarcasm, the link I posted covers most of what has been discussed in this thread. Post count is cool I guess.

it seems like the OP is comparing delay with polarity (relative phase). i don't know wtf he's talking about with phase shifts for individual frequecies...wtf?!

Both sides needs to be in relative phase, have equal amplitude, and both sides ought to voice alike (l/r eq). Then there's icing on the cake. I prefer whipped icing.

 

[cablguy184 10+ year member]

If you can get through the sarcasm, the link I posted covers most of what has been discussed in this thread. Post count is cool I guess.
it seems like the OP is comparing delay with polarity (relative phase). i don't know wtf he's talking about with phase shifts for individual frequecies...wtf?!

Both sides needs to be in relative phase, have equal amplitude, and both sides ought to voice alike (l/r eq). Then there's icing on the cake. I prefer whipped icing.

I agree, driver and passenger seating position should sound the same (equal balance) ... staging and imageing ...

 

[Sarthos 10+ year member]

Phase shifts for individual frequencies requires yet another graph (yay!)

Assume you have two speakers 6 feet away from the listener. The sound will take 0.0053 seconds to reach your ears. Now, assume that the speaker is playing two notes, 1000 Hz and 1200 Hz. The waves will look somewhat like this

http://graph-plotter.cours-de-math.eu/graph.php?a0=2&a1=sin%281000%2Ax%29&a2=sin%281200%2Ax%29&a3=&a4=1&a5=3&a6=7&a7=1&a8=1&a9=1&b0=500&b1=500&b2=0&b3=.01&b4=-2&b5=2&b6=10&b7=10&b8=5&b9=5&c0=3&c1=0&c2=1&c3=1&c4=1&c5=1&c6=1&c7=0&c8=0&c9=0&d0=1&d1=20&d2=20&d3=0&d4=&d5=&d6=&d7=&d8=&d9=&e0=&e1=&e2=&e3=&e4=14&e5=14&e6=13&e7=12&e8=0&e9=0&f0=0&f1=1&f2=1&f3=0&f4=0&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&g0=&g1=1&g2=&g3=0&g4=0&g5=0&zalt=

At 0.0053 seconds the 1000 Hz (blue) wave is near its peak amplitude when it reaches your ear. The 1200 Hz (red) wave, however is practically non-existant. If you could separately adjust the phase for each frequency you could end up with a graph more like this

http://graph-plotter.cours-de-math.eu/graph.php?a0=2&a1=sin%281000%2Ax%29&a2=sin%281200%2A%28x-.001%29%29&a3=&a4=1&a5=3&a6=7&a7=1&a8=1&a9=1&b0=500&b1=500&b2=0&b3=.01&b4=-2&b5=2&b6=10&b7=10&b8=5&b9=5&c0=3&c1=0&c2=1&c3=1&c4=1&c5=1&c6=1&c7=0&c8=0&c9=0&d0=1&d1=20&d2=20&d3=0&d4=&d5=&d6=&d7=&d8=&d9=&e0=&e1=&e2=&e3=&e4=14&e5=14&e6=13&e7=12&e8=0&e9=0&f0=0&f1=1&f2=1&f3=0&f4=0&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&g0=&g1=1&g2=&g3=0&g4=0&g5=0&zalt=

Where both waves are near peak amplitude when they reach your ear, therefore resulting in a louder sound. How that might work over a sum of all frequencies though could either make it ridiculously loud when it reaches your ear, because all soundwaves could be at peak amplitude when they reach the observer, but it might also sound like crap. Not entirely sure.

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

oops.. I forgot to mention "from the driver seat." I do not sit in the passenger seat of my vehicle and do no care how it sounds from there //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[cablguy184 10+ year member]

Phase shifts for individual frequencies requires yet another graph (yay!)Assume you have two speakers 6 feet away from the listener. The sound will take 0.0053 seconds to reach your ears. Now, assume that the speaker is playing two notes, 1000 Hz and 1200 Hz. The waves will look somewhat like this

http://graph-plotter.cours-de-math.eu/graph.php?a0=2&a1=sin%281000%2Ax%29&a2=sin%281200%2Ax%29&a3=&a4=1&a5=3&a6=7&a7=1&a8=1&a9=1&b0=500&b1=500&b2=0&b3=.01&b4=-2&b5=2&b6=10&b7=10&b8=5&b9=5&c0=3&c1=0&c2=1&c3=1&c4=1&c5=1&c6=1&c7=0&c8=0&c9=0&d0=1&d1=20&d2=20&d3=0&d4=&d5=&d6=&d7=&d8=&d9=&e0=&e1=&e2=&e3=&e4=14&e5=14&e6=13&e7=12&e8=0&e9=0&f0=0&f1=1&f2=1&f3=0&f4=0&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&g0=&g1=1&g2=&g3=0&g4=0&g5=0&zalt=

At 0.0053 seconds the 1000 Hz (blue) wave is near its peak amplitude when it reaches your ear. The 1200 Hz (red) wave, however is practically non-existant. If you could separately adjust the phase for each frequency you could end up with a graph more like this

http://graph-plotter.cours-de-math.eu/graph.php?a0=2&a1=sin%281000%2Ax%29&a2=sin%281200%2A%28x-.001%29%29&a3=&a4=1&a5=3&a6=7&a7=1&a8=1&a9=1&b0=500&b1=500&b2=0&b3=.01&b4=-2&b5=2&b6=10&b7=10&b8=5&b9=5&c0=3&c1=0&c2=1&c3=1&c4=1&c5=1&c6=1&c7=0&c8=0&c9=0&d0=1&d1=20&d2=20&d3=0&d4=&d5=&d6=&d7=&d8=&d9=&e0=&e1=&e2=&e3=&e4=14&e5=14&e6=13&e7=12&e8=0&e9=0&f0=0&f1=1&f2=1&f3=0&f4=0&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&g0=&g1=1&g2=&g3=0&g4=0&g5=0&zalt=

Where both waves are near peak amplitude when they reach your ear, therefore resulting in a louder sound. How that might work over a sum of all frequencies though could either make it ridiculously loud when it reaches your ear, because all soundwaves could be at peak amplitude when they reach the observer, but it might also sound like crap. Not entirely sure.

I would perfer a cleaner sound verses a louder sound. More dynamic.

To get a better/ cleaner sound from the stage is what I'm trying to learn.

 

[Sarthos 10+ year member]

Yah, I'm not sure how a setup with a ton of phase shifts would actually sound, just that the sound would have highest amplitude at all frequencies when it reaches your ear. I do know for sure that phase shifting on subs can work really nicely, if you can actually shift the phase rather than just reverse the polarity like most amps have with the 0 or 180 degree phase. TA would be pretty nice but I don't wanna spend a fortune to get it. Weak.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

If the speakers were equidistant from the listener, they would be in perfect phase with each other anyway...

 

[Sarthos 10+ year member]

The overall sound would be in perfect phase for each speaker, but the notes aren't necessarily in perfect phase with each other.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

The overall sound would be in perfect phase for each speaker, but the notes aren't necessarily in perfect phase with each other.

They're not supposed to be. In fact you've completely forgotten the time domain and the fact that they by definition cannot be in perfect phase with each other because they ARE DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES.

 

[cablguy184 10+ year member]

Are yall setting up these speakers (front stage components) on-axis to the listener, or off-axis to the listener ???

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

Are yall setting up these speakers (front stage components) on-axis to the listener, or off-axis to the listener ???

Only sets I have ever had close to being on axis is my first sync set up and my cd3-ultra comps. My new speakers I have now are boarder line off axis. Soon I will be running dual 5.25" component sets in my kicks.

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

Delay Phase 4

 

[Sarthos 10+ year member]

They're not supposed to be. In fact you've completely forgotten the time domain and the fact that they by definition cannot be in perfect phase with each other because they ARE DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES.

True. But they can be in perfect phase with each other for the exact instant when they reach your ear. I don't know how your ear actually picks up the sound, but it is possible for all the frequencies to be in phase for that one instant. I don't know how your ear will pick up on that though.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

True. But they can be in perfect phase with each other for the exact instant when they reach your ear. I don't know how your ear actually picks up the sound, but it is possible for all the frequencies to be in phase for that one instant. I don't know how your ear will pick up on that though.

If you were to play pink noise, regardless of the speaker distance from the listener, every once in awhile it would all line up. That doesn't make this a goal at all.