should i buy some GM stock

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

so what? companies go bankrutp all the time. it affects small companies sure, but not the big ones. i hate that the auto industry feels they deserve federal money like the banks, i mean where does it end if they get money too? on the flip side, the govt aitn going to let them go anywhere though
i 99 percent wont buy stock, but its just an idea. its a gamble but not that much of one.

So what? Your stock could be worthless.

THIS!

Inflated retirement plans? The UAW has conceded a lot on pensions. What is the UAW to do? Tell the people they represented for 30 years that the pensions we fought for are going to be no more? If they conceded everything they would be useless.

In TN, they just shut down they plant. There are union workers, steelworkers, electrical workers, etc...the businesses don't concede....people in the same situtaion.

there has been a lot of argument over these "big wages" that union UAW workers are paid. Even at 28 dollars per hour (consider a 5 day working week, 8 hours per day, minus one hour for lunch, not taking any holidays throughout the year) that is 50,960 dollars a year plus benefits. In 2008 the average income tax bracket for an earner making this wage is 25%. so at the end of the day, the take home pay is 38,220 dollars. This does not include any payments workers pay into whether it be supplemental retirement plans or supplementary health insurance plans.

Please search/research the phrase fully burdened labor rate; which includes wage, businesses share of income tax, pension, health insurance, and the administration of those. That price is closer to $78/hr. Recall the number of employees who are still receiving benefit in the form of pension and health insurance, yet are no longer working. It's not that UAW themselves are making so much money, it's the overhead costs atrributed to labor. However, the Big 3 did sign the agreements.

About your hypothetical person above making $50,960....the average blue collar person has a spouse and two kids. Let's pretend the wife is a stay at home mom.

First of all, the first $16,050 goes untaxed.

$50,960 - $16, 050 = $34,910

Three dependants # ~ $3000 each = $12,000

$34,910 - $12,000 = $22,910

Personal exemption of $3,650

22,910 - 3,650 = $20,260

22,260 * .15 = $3,039

3,039 / 50960 = ~6% effective tax.

I HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHERE YOU GET 25%

 

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

Stay far far away from any Domestic Car Manufacturer at this point. The upside isn't there and you've got an easy path to see where you could lose 100% of your investment. 20 - 25% max upside with 100% on th down aren't very good return intervals.
On a personal note I'm rooting that the Federal Government chooses to not extend them the 100B in "loans" and let's them fall flat on their *****. It will finally break the unions back and put 2.5 million workers back into circulation so we can re-allocate resources. We should take the 100B in funds and start investing in energy production.

I am afraid those workers or more or less useless. Working an assembly line for 10 years makes an employee more or less useless for most other kinds of worth. Furthermore, it isn't like many of them pursue college degrees on the side.

 

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

I know, and the "ugly" is irrelevant, my honda fit base model was the same price as a chevrolet cobalt, and the fit has a ton more features stock, power windows, power locks etc. That all is added value you get for free when buying non domestic

I'd rather have a car without those things. I find it more difficult to find a "stripped" foreign car vs. a stripped domestic.

 

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

So... this is something interesting to thing about... Even more interesting is to do the math of the single person, that is unfortunate enough to make 6.55 per hour and try to mathematically calculate how they can even sustain the most basic lifestyle. Seems to me that one of the biggest sacrifices living in this situation naturally sacrifice is HEALTH CARE EXPENCES!!! WTF!!!!!

We have some VERY serious problems when we have productive working citizens in our country can work 40 hours a week and not be able to meet their basic needs..

One can have a decent lifestyle of $6.55/hr. You are assuming that one should be guarenteed the right to raise a family. I believe if you are unable to manage resources in such a way, then you don't deserve a family.

I didn't engage in ****** activities until I made over $30k/yr. That is what some people call taking personal responsibility.

 

[loopkiller 10+ year member]

From the number I have heard thrown around (but am too lazy to find sources for) state that 75% of the cost of any US made vehicle is labor costs. That includes the pensions and medical for retired workers. How can any company keep up when their labor costs are so high?

Look at the food industry. A friend of mine just opened his own bar/restaurant. His food cost is very low, about 10%. His labor cost is also very low, about 15%. All in all, he turns about a 50 - 40% margin. That means for every dollar of every sale, only 15 cents goes to labor.

Now before I get flamed for comparing the food industry to making cars, I know it is much different. I am only showing a comparison.

Now to who ever it was that said that BMW spent a large share of each sale on research instead of labor, that is exactly why US automakers are in serious trouble. Not to mention the absurd amount of management of any US based company.

Those of you who have worked for the Big 3, tell me how many people walk around the plants carrying clipboards or the such? I work right next door to a large GM factory. At times I have taken tours inside the plant. I have seen a group of hard working people assembling and then another group of people standing around.

Another story I have heard before is from a neighbor of mine when I was a kid. He had worked at a Jeep plant for all of his life (about 20 years) and was pretty high up in seniority. His daily job was to "supervise" people on the line. What he really did was sleep until lunch time, take a 2 -3 hour lunch at the bar across the street, then return to play some hoops in the plant, then take another nap until it was time to punch out. This was his daily routine. The dude pulled in like $60k a year back in the early 90s.

So the demise of the US automakers started many years ago. They are just now feeling the final pinch. It is only a matter of time before they fold or file bankruptcy. IMHO they will restructure under bankruptcy and come back stronger than ever. Until then, it looks very bleak for the average laborer in the US.

 

[Ken448 10+ year member]

Hell the Cadillac was Motor Trend's car of the year.

Thats a total BS award and a Yugo could win it if the price was right.. It is based more on advertising than the car itself!

 

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

So the demise of the US automakers started many years ago. They are just now feeling the final pinch. It is only a matter of time before they fold or file bankruptcy. IMHO they will restructure under bankruptcy and come back stronger than ever. Until then, it looks very bleak for the average laborer in the US.

I was talking to a guy that works for Nissan about going ahead and declaring bankrutpcy, restructuring costs (all across the board, not just legacy costs). and then trying to re-emerge with fewer brands. He thinks that would be a bad idea as customers would be afraid to buy GM, thinking they may not be around in a few years.

Plus, I spoke with him in depth about the concept of the construction of the Frontier...I kind of like what they are doing, but I still rather have GM. But if GM folds, I will probably jump to Nissan. I dislike the Ranger, and the Dakota is just too big/much for me.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

I never saw people wandering around doing nothing. I think my sense of humor lead to my demise as I joked with the union president to get us a White Castle on site, even though there was one 3 blocks away. I do less work at my current job then I did at GM.

 

[loopkiller 10+ year member]

I agree with you Flip that while they are restructuring, they will have to give cars away. But I think that if they emerge from barkruptcy, they will be fine after the fact. If they can offer US buyers a good product (on par with Honda) at a good value (see Kia), then they will not have any issues selling cars domestically. It will be easy to forget the past if they put out a product as described above.

 

[IamDeMan 5,000+ posts]

One can have a decent lifestyle of $6.55/hr. You are assuming that one should be guarenteed the right to raise a family. I believe if you are unable to manage resources in such a way, then you don't deserve a family.
I didn't engage in ****** activities until I made over $30k/yr. That is what some people call taking personal responsibility.

If you will look in the thread I made today, it is obvious no one feels a sense of responsibility.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

They already make quality vehicles. JD Power, who surveys thousands of people, and comes up with how many times cars needed to be serviced, gave the American cars good ratings. Ford had the most vehicles rated in the top 3 in initial quality. They have turned the corner in quality.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

If you will look in the thread I made today, it is obvious no one feels a sense of responsibility.

I was making 5k a year when I first had *** so I lack maturity I guess.

 

[IamDeMan 5,000+ posts]

I was making 5k a year when I first had *** so I lack maturity I guess.

Well that part was a bit much, but did you have smart ***? Flip just finds it easier to avoid it altogether. It is also cost inhibitive to do it "smart".

 

[Flipx99 5,000+ posts]

They already make quality vehicles. JD Power, who surveys thousands of people, and comes up with how many times cars needed to be serviced, gave the American cars good ratings. Ford had the most vehicles rated in the top 3 in initial quality. They have turned the corner in quality.

They haven't quite turned the corner in perception, unfortunately. I am curious how the possibility of bankruptcy effects car buying decisions.

 

[IamDeMan 5,000+ posts]

They already make quality vehicles. JD Power, who surveys thousands of people, and comes up with how many times cars needed to be serviced, gave the American cars good ratings. Ford had the most vehicles rated in the top 3 in initial quality. They have turned the corner in quality.

Vision has ranked them with the rest in problem per 100 for quite some time now.