Questions from a beginner

[Jerm316]

Ok I was into car audio years ago but left it behind for kids and off road hobbies but I’m getting to old to roll over and flip and fall down hills so I’m needing a new hobby. I know it’s m gonna get static for this but I’m a long time jl fan I was hooked when they came out with the old w6 dual 6 ohms. I was thinking about doing a system with 3 w7 12s and I know there’s better options out there it’s just a nostalgic thing to me I guess. But I’m just wondering if I decided to do a few competitions could I compete if installed correctly, I know a lot of factors play into this and I’m not worried about that right now just want info from you guys who are still in the scene if they could compete. Thanks for any help

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[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

Ok I was into car audio years ago but left it behind for kids and off road hobbies but I’m getting to old to roll over and flip and fall down hills so I’m needing a new hobby. I know it’s m gonna get static for this but I’m a long time jl fan I was hooked when they came out with the old w6 dual 6 ohms. I was thinking about doing a system with 3 w7 12s and I know there’s better options out there it’s just a nostalgic thing to me I guess. But I’m just wondering if I decided to do a few competitions could I compete if installed correctly, I know a lot of factors play into this and I’m not worried about that right now just want info from you guys who are still in the scene if they could compete. Thanks for any help

Sure, you can compete with almost any installation if installed properly or not.Would you do any winning?Depends on your competition and installation.You may win at times, and you may loose.Depends on what shows you go to and what competitors you have at those shows or competitions.Id sit down, start writing down what Id like for this system..Type of music listen too, wanting to compete with/SQ, or SPL type set up or? type of vehicle,deadening,type of speakers, locations,supply needed,HU, EQ if needed, battery bank if needed,Budget first off, and do some searching and reading and then asking questions for what you may need or want to incorporate.Type of wire, RCAs,ect.Brand of speakers,ect. First off, what is your goal here?

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

By the way..Welcome!!

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Ok I was into car audio years ago but left it behind for kids and off road hobbies but I’m getting to old to roll over and flip and fall down hills so I’m needing a new hobby. I know it’s m gonna get static for this but I’m a long time jl fan I was hooked when they came out with the old w6 dual 6 ohms. I was thinking about doing a system with 3 w7 12s and I know there’s better options out there it’s just a nostalgic thing to me I guess. But I’m just wondering if I decided to do a few competitions could I compete if installed correctly, I know a lot of factors play into this and I’m not worried about that right now just want info from you guys who are still in the scene if they could compete. Thanks for any help

This guy was doing 151 even with the JL amps, gained up to 152 and some change switching out to some Sundown amps.  I think weak electrical prevented him from gaining more.   He did blow up these subs on 2000W each eventually.  W7 is rock solid on 1000-1200W, you'll melt the coils pretty fast after that.

There was another guy running some w7s in an explorer a few years back up here that did quite well for his power/cone area.  

I will say if you do care to compete, figure out what organization is active in your area, research what their classes are, and try to build within limitations.   You will absolutely NOT be competitive if you wind up doing something that puts you up against guys with wall builds or guys using 5X the power you have.  Really though if you don't mind the price tag you can sound good and get loud with W7s and you can absolutely put up respectable numbers. 

Lastly a lot of orgs have music average competition formats these days.  They're often much closer contests than peak SPL and require a bit of skill in song selection and your run.  For example you build a 146dB system which may be plenty loud for your daily driving, you would get into a class trying to get as close to 140.0 without going over on a 30 second average.  It's not so extreme that you risk breaking stuff and regardless of what gear anybody else runs what counts is just keeping the average at 140.0 without going over. 

Post up a build log as you go please.

 

[Jerm316]

Thanks guys, I listen to all music but mainly rap or bass heavy songs when subs are involved lol. I have done some research and none of it’s concrete yet but like I said it’s kinda nostalgic. Pretty much rebuilding setup with newer stuff. The original was clarion pro audio hu and eq running Boston highs, 3 jl 12w6d6 running on a ppi a6 and I believe an poi a404 on highs. I’m not sure what he was running electrically but that’s not an issue I can upgrade whatever I need. Ok my issue is all these brands have changed over the years so far I’m looking at 3 12w7 the black ice amps are the best option from ppi the 5000 or 7000 seem closest to the power I need at 1 ohm. One of the 4 channels for the highs which I haven’t decided on yet. Looking at clarion deck and eq also but they don’t look as good as they used to so maybe I need to scrap this plan. For the car I was looking at picking up a late 80s early 90s dodge Daytona to put it in. Wouldn’t be a daily driver just want to use it to play with.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Thanks guys, I listen to all music but mainly rap or bass heavy songs when subs are involved lol. I have done some research and none of it’s concrete yet but like I said it’s kinda nostalgic. Pretty much rebuilding setup with newer stuff. The original was clarion pro audio hu and eq running Boston highs, 3 jl 12w6d6 running on a ppi a6 and I believe an poi a404 on highs. I’m not sure what he was running electrically but that’s not an issue I can upgrade whatever I need. Ok my issue is all these brands have changed over the years so far I’m looking at 3 12w7 the black ice amps are the best option from ppi the 5000 or 7000 seem closest to the power I need at 1 ohm. One of the 4 channels for the highs which I haven’t decided on yet. Looking at clarion deck and eq also but they don’t look as good as they used to so maybe I need to scrap this plan. For the car I was looking at picking up a late 80s early 90s dodge Daytona to put it in. Wouldn’t be a daily driver just want to use it to play with.

Those old Boston components were awful nice, ran the pro series 3 ways myself for ages.  I used to be able to drive to Peabody and pick up replacements if I broke a driver even.  I had to jump ship on them when they outsourced manufacturing though which was some time ago.  PPI is pretty close to a junk brand these days, I believe they started slipping @ 2001.  They haven't made anything even remotely close to those great old school ones in well over 10 years.  Not sure if Clarion still makes a good head unit but I don't see many people use them.   Pioneer, Kenwood, Alpine are the big 3.  Sony makes some decent ones plus one super high end snobophile one which seems incredibly nice but the price tag is hellacious.  JVC I believe is owned by Kenwood and seems to be decent. 

If you don't even own a car yet, you might consider an SUV or similar.  Conventional wisdom is "space makes bass".   You will not have enough room in that car to do 3 12's properly and even a pair will be tight.   12w7 wants about 3 cube net (figure 4-4.5 ft^3 gross) each after wood and port displacement, so filling up the back of that hatch really fast.   On the bright side, Lithium batteries can supply you with an awful lot of energy in small light package and if you look into the Brazilian amps they deliver big power out of a small footprint too.   If you're really married to the idea of the old Daytona it seems a good body style to get loud but it won't be as easy as getting say a Blazer or Explorer.... 2 door versions of each are known to get loud pretty easy.

If you want a car for the purpose of getting loud consider allowing some space, the ability to hold a fair bit of weight (wood, gear, etc.), and options for alternator upgrade.   Cramped engine areas or oddball motors may not allow any custom alternator options whereas common V8s from the big 3 are super easy to do upgrades and usually come in cars that can take some extra weight and have some room to work. 

Or if you want to get real crazy you could definitely do a wall with 3 13W7s in something like that provided you beef up the suspension enough to hang with a few hundred pounds of wood, screws, and glue.

 

[Jerm316]

The site says 1.75 cu ft for the w7 12. Looking at other speakers and most are cheaper but they have huge power ratings. What’s the best way to figure out what type of added power I’ll need battery and alt wise. I may have to go a different route I’m not really stuck on the Daytona. I’ve been looking at the re xxx the fi subs all the way up to the omega and the Orion hcca. If I do a larger vehicle I’d probably move up in speaker size also. Any experience with those subs 

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

The site says 1.75 cu ft for the w7 12. Looking at other speakers and most are cheaper but they have huge power ratings. What’s the best way to figure out what type of added power I’ll need battery and alt wise. I may have to go a different route I’m not really stuck on the Daytona. I’ve been looking at the re xxx the fi subs all the way up to the omega and the Orion hcca. If I do a larger vehicle I’d probably move up in speaker size also. Any experience with those subs 

I'm going to guess that 1.75 cube is either "minimum" or a flat out lie.  That is small for a modern 12" sub ported.  The one 12w7 I ever built a box for IIRC wanted a rather large box to model nicely.  It definitely would have stuck in my mind if box space was that small.   Throw it into WInISD and check for yourself if you like. 

New RE subs are questionable.   I like the W7 over new XXX, they'll be more efficient.  Still not impressed with the Orion HCCA either.  Fi products are very nice and made in USA, the big downside there is 4-6 week average build times to fill your order.   Since it seems you're not on a budget also worth considering DD products.   Their woofers are also built in-house in the USA and while their amps are Korean (almost everything is these days) are also proven performers. 

As far as big power handling numbers, be careful with that.  A lot of that is flat out lies and while there are definitely subs that can hang with 2500W continuous, and basically everything we can do to make subs handle more power without failing all rob from efficiency to do it so where you wind up is buying a 5000w amp to get a pair of 2400W subs to get just as loud as a more efficient pair of 1200W subs on 2500W amp.... but when it comes time for dick measuring about how much power you're running at your subs you win some bragging rights there.

I'm a big fan of Zed Audio for amps.  He's the guy who did Hifonics, Alphasonic, Rodek, ESX, US Acoustics, Lanzar, Crunch 50, Autotek, and a number of other old school tanks.  He also designed some modern Focal, Mosconi, and Phoenix Gold offerings.   His new full range class D amps are excellent and have some great flexible on-board crossover features.   They are a bit big since he uses regulated power supply, so if space is an issue you can find smaller full range class D elsewhere.   His sub amps may be a bit small for your needs depending how loud you think you want to get there but the multichannels would be solid for running some fronts.

As far as electrical, proper high output alternator is the best place to start and may be all you need.  Competition tier high output alternators are "6 phase" and "hairpin" (flat wire).  They are capable of real world 300A or more!   Depending on how much power you chose to run just that + upgrading your primary battery to a good quality AGM would probably do.   If that's not possible Lithium battery technology is your best option for power storage but the energy MUST BE created by your alternator so you'll need to basically add batteries until you have enough storage to play as long as you like, loud, between downtime for the alternator(s) to replenish your battery reserves.  I use Excessive Amperage alternator, Nathan has always done me right.   Ohio Generator has been in the business a long time and I've heard nothing but praise from people who own them around here, Mechman and Singer are also pretty well established for quality alternators.

How loud do you really want to get and how much space will you have to work with?   That'll help a lot trying to at least rule out gear that won't really fit your goals.    I'm guessing you might really be underestimating what 3 modern 12s on a legit 6K amp can accomplish, either that or you want to be able to get loud enough to break **** in your car.... both are cool.  

 

[Jerm316]

Breaking **** would be cool lol, I think I’m gonna go with my original plan but find different amps I don’t think the ppi amps will hold up. The brazillion amps you mentioned look pretty impressive for the size maybe the taramps 5000.1 1 ohm model looks like more than enough for 3 w7. I thought the box size was pretty small to considering the old w6 spec was larger than that. Probably going to find a car first then I’ll start buying everything else after Xmas. I’ll be sure to post a build once I get started. Thanks for the input.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Breaking **** would be cool lol, I think I’m gonna go with my original plan but find different amps I don’t think the ppi amps will hold up. The brazillion amps you mentioned look pretty impressive for the size maybe the taramps 5000.1 1 ohm model looks like more than enough for 3 w7. I thought the box size was pretty small to considering the old w6 spec was larger than that. Probably going to find a car first then I’ll start buying everything else after Xmas. I’ll be sure to post a build once I get started. Thanks for the input.

The Brazilian amps are very popular where space is an issue.   The Korean 5K boards are probably a bit more reliable so if you wind up with plenty of room might shop around your options there but if you're tight for space you absolutely can't beat the Brazilians.    As far as timing, a lot of companies have big Black Friday sales so pop back here around then and you might find some deals too good to pass up and jump into some of the other brands if you aren't dead set on brands and want to save a buck.   SSA usually does a full week of sales and they sell a lot of nice stuff, their own and a lot of other solid brands.

 

[Jerm316]

Just got on ssa they started the sale already, they have a lot of subs I’ve never heard of but look to be well built.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Just got on ssa they started the sale already, they have a lot of subs I’ve never heard of but look to be well built.

They typically have one huge loss leader each day for a few days to a week after Thanksgiving.   Of particular interest in subs would be the SSA branded subs (xcon would do fairly well up against W7 and handle a bit more power) or the Adire Brahma which also would be very comparable performance to W7 if not marginally lower distortion due to XBL^2 technology (though possibly at the expense of some efficiency).   The Brahma is an awful nice sounding sub so you might pounce on some of them if they come out with a good sale price, much like W7 it's a rather old design but has some brilliant engineering behind it and is very much still relevant.

As far as amps, most should be comparable.  NVX is rather lower tier brand, Banda is a solid Brazilian design but has been known for rather dubious QC/component selection, Orion HCCA seems pretty good but that brand only just recently got good again so I'd call those slightly risky.  Incriminator amps are proven performers in the lanes and if that 40.1 goes on sale that's got a decently small footprint and has proven rock solid in the lanes.