myths about sub sizes

[ewadz3006 10+ year member]

I do everything myself, but im not ready to crusify someone for paying to have the work done. It just means hes not an" installer". But we are all " enthusiasts"

 

[04silverz 10+ year member]

I do everything myself, but im not ready to crusify someone for paying to have the work done. It just means hes not an" installer". But we are all " enthusiasts"

Yeah I don't get the big deal. Some people aren't good at stuff like that. Some would rather not mess with it.

I play guitar as a hobby and own five. Never built one so I guess I'm in the wrong. Tbh though I would like to one day assemble one, but even then it would be from various parts off the shelf

 

[zako 10+ year member]

There is a big thread on this subject in the myths section on DIYMA. It seems like a lot people agree that the issue of transient response is independent of the cone size, and it's more related to the design of motor. Subwoofers with low and well controlled inductance (over the stroke) are known to have good transient response, regardless of cone size, as long as you put them into a correct box. Inductance is only a part of the equation, as some subwoofers with no inductive treatment are known to have good transient response too.

The myth probably originates from the fact that a lot of subwoofers with large cones are designed for power handling and long stroke rather than good transient response. To make things worse, people often use a wrong box size. For example, a lot of 15 subwoofers require a huge box for a low box qtc, but manufacturers recommend more "reasonable" box sizes which results in a high qtc. Actually, a lot of 12 inch subs suffer from this too. A lot of manufacturers want you believe a 0.5-1cu ft is ok for their 12 inch subs. In reality, most of them will have a very high qtc in this box (high qtc, such as close to 1, can result in higher power handling but worse transient response).

 

[seedubs1 10+ year member]

I do everything myself, but im not ready to crusify someone for paying to have the work done. It just means hes not an" installer". But we are all " enthusiasts"

As far as I'm concerned, they can get off of these boards (they are welcome to read and ask questions). They have nothing to contribute.

 

[Imtjnotu 5,000+ posts]

this myth will never die

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

As far as I'm concerned, they can get off of these boards (they are welcome to read and ask questions). They have nothing to contribute.

As far as I'm concerned, they can get off of these boards (they are welcome to read and ask questions). They have nothing to contribute.

That's pretty pretentious on alot of levels, and frankly fairly insulting.. First off car audio's fun for some people isn't the installing, it's actually listening to car audio. Yeah the 16 year olds with 15 year old cars who only want to rattle their trunk and sound loud tend to change setups every other week since they have no bills to pay (90% of ths forum) may enjoy the installing part. Especially since they don't know enough about audio to get the sound they want in one or even 5 attempts at random sub and box combo's. If they didn't enjoy ripping their car apart to make ugly and nasty soundng boxes they'd really need to find a new hobby.

Some people, who dont' do their own installs are past that . My last car I didn't.. I designed my own sub box, 6th order bandpass using passive radiators, but no I didn't build it.. Like others have said, not everyone has a place to build a box like that or the time to do so.. Plus, some people are actually smart enough to know what sound they want and can actually build a box first try that accomodates it. Once you know enough about car audio to do that, you can actually worry about making the install pretty, which unless you really do have alot of time, often doesn't involve it all being DIY.

Lastly, staring at this nooby 4 page thread and I haven't seen the word inductance used one time.. If you really want to know why smaller cheap car audio subs sound tighter or fast than their bigger counterparts, then inducatance and voice coil size on cheap woofers that don't have faraday rings is a big reason and nobody has really touched on it.... Sounds like I have more to contribute than most.. Which I do, which is why I rarely post, it gets boring on here talking about such simple topics.. I prefer to just browse and use the classifieds some.

Anyway, my last setup was studio reference level pro audio gear. High end compression drivers mated to ID horns, BMS midranges and as I said a 6th order using AV15's. I didn't build the box myself or my kickpanels. I did however tune my fully active setup, which is FAR beyond the scope of the average 17 year old using daddy's router in his indoor garage. I also at least designed my own enclosure, again beyond the scope of 3/4 of the forum, given how many myths about box design I see on here and the idolization and employment of the few people on here that seem to actually know what they are talking about.

 

[Why So Cereal? 5,000+ posts]

Meh, never built a box and don't really care to. I designed my last one though, just a simple small ported box, and helped seal and deaden my doors and tuned the active fronts and T/A myself.

I'd say I am a "car audio guy".

 

[JoeK 10+ year member]

I just don't get the hate on those who buy proper boxes. "Buying stuff and throwing it in the car". Did you build your amplifier and sub? Same thing here.

 

[jungstah 10+ year member]

That's pretty pretentious on alot of levels, and frankly fairly insulting.. First off car audio's fun for some people isn't the installing, it's actually listening to car audio. Yeah the 16 year olds with 15 year old cars who only want to rattle their trunk and sound loud tend to change setups every other week since they have no bills to pay (90% of ths forum) may enjoy the installing part. Especially since they don't know enough about audio to get the sound they want in one or even 5 attempts at random sub and box combo's. If they didn't enjoy ripping their car apart to make ugly and nasty soundng boxes they'd really need to find a new hobby.
Some people, who dont' do their own installs are past that . My last car I didn't.. I designed my own sub box, 6th order bandpass using passive radiators, but no I didn't build it.. Like others have said, not everyone has a place to build a box like that or the time to do so.. Plus, some people are actually smart enough to know what sound they want and can actually build a box first try that accomodates it. Once you know enough about car audio to do that, you can actually worry about making the install pretty, which unless you really do have alot of time, often doesn't involve it all being DIY.

Lastly, staring at this nooby 4 page thread and I haven't seen the word inductance used one time.. If you really want to know why smaller cheap car audio subs sound tighter or fast than their bigger counterparts, then inducatance and voice coil size on cheap woofers that don't have faraday rings is a big reason and nobody has really touched on it.... Sounds like I have more to contribute than most.. Which I do, which is why I rarely post, it gets boring on here talking about such simple topics.. I prefer to just browse and use the classifieds some.

Anyway, my last setup was studio reference level pro audio gear. High end compression drivers mated to ID horns, BMS midranges and as I said a 6th order using AV15's. I didn't build the box myself or my kickpanels. I did however tune my fully active setup, which is FAR beyond the scope of the average 17 year old using daddy's router in his indoor garage. I also at least designed my own enclosure, again beyond the scope of 3/4 of the forum, given how many myths about box design I see on here and the idolization and employment of the few people on here that seem to actually know what they are talking about.

*slow clap*

 

[cb1000r 10+ year member]

Build it yourself. Good skills to have if you're going to be in the car audio game. Honestly, I look down on people that don't design and build their own systems that say they're into car audio.
All you need is a circular saw, a drill, and some patience.

You're not really in the hobby if all you do is buy crap and slap it in your car.

I would venture to guess you built your car ??.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif That logic FAILS on so many levels.

I built my motocross bike from a Frame.(dissassembled it all too beforehand) I went from buckets of parts and spent weeks ordering everything I needed to replace and was out of spec...rebuilt ******, clutch ,new crank, rod, bearings, piston, cylinder was replated,head was done with oversized valves..but I guess since I payed someone to: cut oversized valve seats ,and go +1mm on intake, and exhaust I am not a rider..or a builder. BTW built that bike form bare frame in 1 night. Split cases fully rebuilt engine, rebuilt wheels, new bars controls grips graphics etc etc....and rode that thing in a 2 races the next day. But hey I payed for my suspension to be valved so must not be a real moto guy.

I can build boxes all day...been in woodshop for years and taking construction tech classes in college....BUT box design...hell no...6th order 4th order and other designs beside basic t-line and ported are over my head and dig deeper into theory and understanding than I ever feel like learning. DO i like bas though...YES do i install all my gear yes..... but to say that I would look down on someone for paying to have it done RIGHT....That would make me a pretentious ******* and a douche with an inflated ego. Unless somebody builds their own amps..assembles their own subwoofers...and every component of their system....there is no room to look down on others for not building an enclosure. At the end of the day everyone is "Assembling" a system....Just because you assemble some wood doesnt make you any better. Now let the flaming and whining begin as I only have a few posts so I will be discredited and bitched at for being a forum noob blah blah....

OH and since you only need a circular saw and drill...can you please show me how to cut out woofer holes accurately with only those two tools??? post a vid please..Im a visual learner.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

So besides space saving what are sealed boxes good for because I always heard they were better for sound quality?

They are much more forgiving if your dimensions are off. Sealed eliminates some complications, but the driver MUST be designed for sealed application. What alignment you use should be determined by the woofer.... or really when a woofer is being engineered it should be designed to work well with a particular application.

I think someone also said smaller subs resonate at higher frequencies better than large ones.

All things being equal (motor, coil, suspension) smaller woofers will have higher Fs, but that really doesn't tell the whole story of what you can and can't get them to play properly in a box in a car.

Is their a tonal difference that causes people to prefer smaller subs over larger ones? do they resonate at higher frequencies with more articulation? Anything?

It's mainly because 90% of people out there use too-small sealed boxes. Larger subs really want huge *** boxes to sound nice.

**** what a good answer!

That was the old TC Sounds "myths about subwoofers" FAQ page. Well worth finding in the wayback machine and reading through if anyone hasn't seen it.

Glad I read this thread. I had always "heard" from everyone that 10's were tighter and more accurate and hit harder than 12's. If I can afford quality 12's and to power them properly, and have the space for them, they should perform better (SQ) than 10s. Yes...?

They should play louder.

What a mess! I'm in the 10 vs 12 stage right now. All myths point to 10s being "cleaner and harder hitting", but I know there is so much more to it than that. I'd rather have 12's (I think), I just need to convince myself, or be convinced, that it's the way to go.

If you have the space go with larger subs provided they're a decent quality sub the larger ones should do everything the smaller ones can.

This hobby is not all about money. It's about making the best system for your needs with what you have.
And because you can't build your own system, it means you don't know **** about car audio. All you do is pay others to do it for you instead of learning.

I don't know a single older member on these boards that knows their **** who couldn't build and design their own system. You are not a car audio guy. You are someone who pays car audio guys to build your system for you.

Do you build your own woofers?

 

[FlexnInLa 10+ year member]

As far as I'm concerned, they can get off of these boards (they are welcome to read and ask questions). They have nothing to contribute.

Wow if you don't install you have nothing to contribute?

I don't design my own boxes, I pay to have the best possible box design... something I don't have the knowledge to do myself. Can I look up specs on a sub and design a box? Sure. Is it optimized for the vehicle it is going in and my listening preference? Hell no, that's why guys like Mobile Enclosures are in business.

My woodworking skills are not the best, so it's cheaper for me to "pay" my buddy, who is a pro installer, a case of beer to build my boxes. Can I build a box? Sure, I've built tons, sealed and ported, wth the friend I mentioned. Is it faster and easier for both of us for me to hand him the plans and the cutsheet and sit back and watch? **** right it is. He does it every day, for a living, all I do is slow him down.

Guess my opinion doesn't count. Should I "get off these boards" now seedubs1?

Oh, I should mention, I'm kind of proud of myself... I have been studying and understand the basics of a 4th order box, what makes a particular sub appropriate for a 4th order, and how to tune the sealed and ported chambers. I'm still at a loss when vehicle interaction comes into play though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[seedubs1 10+ year member]

Do you build your own woofers?

yes.

And lulz at noobs who fail at install. Maybe learn something instead of saying you don't know so you'll pay someone to do it for you.

Chumps.

 

[seedubs1 10+ year member]

OH and since you only need a circular saw and drill...can you please show me how to cut out woofer holes accurately with only those two tools??? post a vid please..Im a visual learner.

Very large hole saw for a drill //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif or splurge and pick up a $10 jig saw. Those are super expensive, though.....

Personally, I use a 3/4" router and a jig. But it's highly unnecessary other than for the win factor.

 

[Dave88LX 10+ year member]

The cost of the tools is more than covered by the cost of having someone professionally build you a box. A craftsman circular saw/drill combo can be had for $75. And I've built in apartments. So those are null and void excuses.
Not having the time....

If you don't have the time for your hobby, then it's not your hobby or way of life.

People that don't build/design their own systems are not car audio guys. They are people who buy it and throw it in their car.

It's like me saying I'm a construction worker (I am not) because I bought a house.

Build it yourself. Good skills to have if you're going to be in the car audio game. Honestly, I look down on people that don't design and build their own systems that say they're into car audio.
All you need is a circular saw, a drill, and some patience.

You're not really in the hobby if all you do is buy crap and slap it in your car.

Good God.
I have all the tools I need. It's not a tool thing. I'm OK with being called "not a car audio guy". As for time, I work 8-10 hours a day, drive 1 hour each way in the DC/Baltimore traffic mess, have a 2 year old and a 4 year old, I'm on the road travelling almost every other week, and have a slew of home improvement projects/honey-do list items that I need to get knocked off.

If choosing to spend my limited free time with my kids over learning the intricacies of subwoofer box design, and building one makes me a worthless non-contributor who doesn't deserve to have a nice system to listen to for my 2 hours I spend on the road each day, then so be it.