Loudest no-wall suv's?

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I have not, but I've seen impedance graphs for both neo and conventional subs.
Power compression as in you don't get much more output as you add more and more power.

From your other posts, you seem to be agreeing that DD should not make 4" coil neos, since 3" coils are better overall

DD95 was a 3" coil when they were setting records and the DD-z is 3 inch coil setting records. DD has made 4" coil Z's and is no longer making them. By my estimation that's clear evidence that to date it is optimum for SPL. The guys with extreme builds won't blink at an extra 2000$ per sub if it'll put them from 179 to 180... or from 182 to 183. The trust-fund kid, celebrity/athlete won't even look at price tag if it's "the best". What was the MSRP of Kicker Warhorse? JBL/Crown 6K? MTX Jackhammer? Clarion 32"? The fact that they don't make parts for them is a good indication that NOBODY is doing real SPL with them. If someone was doing extreme SPL with them they'd still make/stock softparts to sell to those guys every time they break something.

I was thinking of thermal compression (explained nicely in TC Sounds subwoofer myths...which can be found archived online) which likely comes into play in extreme applications, but magnet material won't effect that. As far as just having more motor force to push against their own pressure wave once you really start increasing power the reports I heave heard from testing shows that neo really pulls ahead of ceramic there.

I've got some text data here of impedance sweeps (WT3 software is on my old computer). Comparing the 05 Shocker Sig with d2.8 coil vs. Neo sig with same coil and other 12" parts, the ceramic shows impedance peak of 34ohm and the neo at 44ohm. Interestingly enough the same coil and neo motor built up to 18" has impedance peak at 20ohms (at the same freq as the 12). With the 18" build and the d1.4 ohm coil we rise from 3 ohm to close to 30 at a lower Fs! Aluminum coil also seems to change impedance curve and Fs. Honestly I would say there's more to how high your impedance will peak than motor material anyway. I would say moving FS (through varying stiffness of the spider or different mass coils) has a significant effect on impedance peak as well.

 

[MrFoca]

As opposed to the regular ones that are 2600$? LOL. What do you think it costs DD to make it in 4" coil over 3" coil? 15$ for the coil? 5$ for a little more steel in the top and bottom plate?
Trust me, if the 4" was better/louder Dante and Butler would be switching to them and gaining and DD would be touting them as "new and improved" or "even better".

So you know Alan ?

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

DD95 was a 3" coil when they were setting records and the DD-z is 3 inch coil setting records. DD has made 4" coil Z's and is no longer making them. By my estimation that's clear evidence that to date it is optimum for SPL. The guys with extreme builds won't blink at an extra 2000$ per sub if it'll put them from 179 to 180... or from 182 to 183. The trust-fund kid, celebrity/athlete won't even look at price tag if it's "the best". What was the MSRP of Kicker Warhorse? JBL/Crown 6K? MTX Jackhammer? Clarion 32"? The fact that they don't make parts for them is a good indication that NOBODY is doing real SPL with them. If someone was doing extreme SPL with them they'd still make/stock softparts to sell to those guys every time they break something.
I was thinking of thermal compression (explained nicely in TC Sounds subwoofer myths...which can be found archived online) which likely comes into play in extreme applications, but magnet material won't effect that. As far as just having more motor force to push against their own pressure wave once you really start increasing power the reports I heave heard from testing shows that neo really pulls ahead of ceramic there.

I've got some text data here of impedance sweeps (WT3 software is on my old computer). Comparing the 05 Shocker Sig with d2.8 coil vs. Neo sig with same coil and other 12" parts, the ceramic shows impedance peak of 34ohm and the neo at 44ohm. Interestingly enough the same coil and neo motor built up to 18" has impedance peak at 20ohms (at the same freq as the 12). With the 18" build and the d1.4 ohm coil we rise from 3 ohm to close to 30 at a lower Fs! Aluminum coil also seems to change impedance curve and Fs. Honestly I would say there's more to how high your impedance will peak than motor material anyway. I would say moving FS (through varying stiffness of the spider or different mass coils) has a significant effect on impedance peak as well.

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you about the 3" coils being better for SPL applications. I don't understand what the argument was about.

I'm saying in general, neo subs have higher rise. Although, strong motors of any type usually yield high rise. There is lots of talk about rise on the forum, but I am starting to think it's not such a bad thing. High rise is easier on your amps and electrical system, because not as much current is allowed to flow. Also, if often goes hand-in-hand with efficiency.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you about the 3" coils being better for SPL applications. I don't understand what the argument was about.
I'm saying in general, neo subs have higher rise. Although, strong motors of any type usually yield high rise. There is lots of talk about rise on the forum, but I am starting to think it's not such a bad thing. High rise is easier on your amps and electrical system, because not as much current is allowed to flow. Also, if often goes hand-in-hand with efficiency.

Yes, just clarifying my reasoning.

Impedance curves are all over the place. Just looked at my numbers for a TC9 motor with ZV2 coil + softparts. 4 ohm nominal (d2 in series) sits at nearly 8 ohm at 20hz rises up to 40 ohm at 38hz then drops pretty fast down to about 6 ohm in the mid 50hz range. TC9 by far is NOT a super strong motor!

Also by this example we can see a situation where someone is playing their favorite DJ Whalesong 33hz "music" and the amp is seeing 30 ohms thinking "my sub can take 4000W all day erry day", and where if they tried the same thing at 53hz they'd be in trouble in a hurry.

I would be hesitant to make any generalizations about impedance curves of drivers based on motor material or "strength". Also these all change with sub in a box then with the sub and box in a car, but you get the idea.

And yes, as you say, the highest impedance is generally the most efficient, though it's often a tradeoff between the high impedance and efficiency gained by resonance or the gain of possibly 4 to 6X the power by building your subs to peak high but somewhere not around your peak.

I think it largely comes down to trial and error if you're really trying to squeeze out 10ths. I've seen significant gains from just using an aluminum over a copper coil, using a stiffer or looser suspension, etc. If you enjoy building subs and testing, playing around looking for the perfect mix might be fun, otherwise I think most people would do best just to pick a platform they like and build around what that likes to do, changing platforms only if they absolutely have tried everything else to work around.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Yes, just clarifying my reasoning.
Impedance curves are all over the place. Just looked at my numbers for a TC9 motor with ZV2 coil + softparts. 4 ohm nominal (d2 in series) sits at nearly 8 ohm at 20hz rises up to 40 ohm at 38hz then drops pretty fast down to about 6 ohm in the mid 50hz range. TC9 by far is NOT a super strong motor!

Also by this example we can see a situation where someone is playing their favorite DJ Whalesong 33hz "music" and the amp is seeing 30 ohms thinking "my sub can take 4000W all day erry day", and where if they tried the same thing at 53hz they'd be in trouble in a hurry.

I would be hesitant to make any generalizations about impedance curves of drivers based on motor material or "strength". Also these all change with sub in a box then with the sub and box in a car, but you get the idea.

And yes, as you say, the highest impedance is generally the most efficient, though it's often a tradeoff between the high impedance and efficiency gained by resonance or the gain of possibly 4 to 6X the power by building your subs to peak high but somewhere not around your peak.

I think it largely comes down to trial and error if you're really trying to squeeze out 10ths. I've seen significant gains from just using an aluminum over a copper coil, using a stiffer or looser suspension, etc. If you enjoy building subs and testing, playing around looking for the perfect mix might be fun, otherwise I think most people would do best just to pick a platform they like and build around what that likes to do, changing platforms only if they absolutely have tried everything else to work around.

DJ Walesong made me lol

I'm saying a Kicker CVR or Boss 5000 watt sub won't have a bunch of rise. I have magnets on my fridge stronger than those motors. If one of those did have a ridiculous rise, I would be extremely surprised. Have you seen a powerful and/or neo that does not have high rise? I know some motors like the Night shade v3 have pole sleeve options that reduce rise, at the cost of some motor force.

There's always a tradeoff in audio. Can't have the best of everything. Can't be loud, cheap, and sound good/accurate, while not weighing a lot and/or taking up a lot of space.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

DJ Walesong made me lol
I'm saying a Kicker CVR or Boss 5000 watt sub won't have a bunch of rise. I have magnets on my fridge stronger than those motors. If one of those did have a ridiculous rise, I would be extremely surprised. Have you seen a powerful and/or neo that does not have high rise? I know some motors like the Night shade v3 have pole sleeve options that reduce rise, at the cost of some motor force.

There's always a tradeoff in audio. Can't have the best of everything. Can't be loud, cheap, and sound good/accurate, while not weighing a lot and/or taking up a lot of space.

We are talking about real competition level drivers for the sake of this thread.

Like I said 18" Neo Sig with s2.8 coil seriesed has z-max of only 20 ohm. Same setup with d1.4 seriesed coil z-max 26ohm. Another with different softparts (fs about 10hz lower) same d1.4 coil z-max of over 40 ohm. That motor definitely uses copper shorting ring. From what I'm told there's reasons other than just lowering inductance that it's used, but I won't go out on a limb and try to put out information which I haven't confirmed.

*Edit* For the record I have been using high voltage amps for a while now so I'm mostly concerned with higher nominal impedance subs, hence the big z-nom numbers. Testing wiring lower shows consistent multiples from z-nom to z-max.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

We are talking about real competition level drivers for the sake of this thread.
Like I said 18" Neo Sig with s2.8 coil seriesed has z-max of only 20 ohm. Same setup with d1.4 seriesed coil z-max 26ohm. Another with different softparts (fs about 10hz lower) same d1.4 coil z-max of over 40 ohm. That motor definitely uses copper shorting ring. From what I'm told there's reasons other than just lowering inductance that it's used, but I won't go out on a limb and try to put out information which I haven't confirmed.

*Edit* For the record I have been using high voltage amps for a while now so I'm mostly concerned with higher nominal impedance subs, hence the big z-nom numbers. Testing wiring lower shows consistent multiples from z-nom to z-max.

Yea, was thinking about shorting rings. Do they have any drawbacks besides a little extra cost?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Yea, was thinking about shorting rings. Do they have any drawbacks besides a little extra cost?

Mostly loss of sensitivity.

A decent synopsis about the evolution of their use and pros and cons Speaker Asylum

Bear in mind that the drivers they are discussing are probably PA or home theater and nowhere close to the 50+ pound monstrosities we're talking about here.... which may or may not change the conclusions of the fellow that mentions Klippel's research.

I've seen other debates on audio forums which contest whether a high Le is even a bad thing or how it can possibly be useful (lowering Le is one of the main advantages of shorting ring/sleeve/etc.)

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Mostly loss of sensitivity.
A decent synopsis about the evolution of their use and pros and cons Speaker Asylum

Bear in mind that the drivers they are discussing are probably PA or home theater and nowhere close to the 50+ pound monstrosities we're talking about here.... which may or may not change the conclusions of the fellow that mentions Klippel's research.

I've seen other debates on audio forums which contest whether a high Le is even a bad thing or how it can possibly be useful (lowering Le is one of the main advantages of shorting ring/sleeve/etc.)

I was thinking about the possibility of adding copper shorting rings to the pole pieces of my motors. What do you think?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I was thinking about the possibility of adding copper shorting rings to the pole pieces of my motors. What do you think?

I strongly suspect if that would help performance Fi would have done so.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

I strongly suspect if that would help performance Fi would have done so.

Was talking about the Z's, but you're probably right.

The N3's are spoken for. Made an agreement with Doug118. They're his after I receive payment

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Was talking about the Z's, but you're probably right.
The N3's are spoken for. Made an agreement with Doug118. They're his after I receive payment

Doubly so for the Z's. Both DD and Fi do their homework before releasing a product to begin with and have frequent revisions and improvement tweaks. You might have some luck mix-matching coils or suspensions or cones to suit your needs, but as for as motor geometry, they're a lot different than the cookie cutter China stuff that most "brands" sell. AFAIK both companies actually employ engineers.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Doubly so for the Z's. Both DD and Fi do their homework before releasing a product to begin with and have frequent revisions and improvement tweaks. You might have some luck mix-matching coils or suspensions or cones to suit your needs, but as for as motor geometry, they're a lot different than the cookie cutter China stuff that most "brands" sell. AFAIK both companies actually employ engineers.

That's true. Was just typing what I was thinking.

I would like to work for DD some day //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/graduate.gif.d982460be9f153bb54e5d4cb744f6ae8.gif

 

[Doug118 10+ year member]

I'm glad this thread turned into what it is but I still haven't found out much about 2 sub no-wall setups. My original goal was a 155 and I did that right out of the gate with not a single bit of testing. I'm hoping I can gain 2db on music and 2.5db with a burp. That'll put me at 157 on music and 158 burp. Anyone think that's unrealistic?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

That's true. Was just typing what I was thinking.
I would like to work for DD some day //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/graduate.gif.d982460be9f153bb54e5d4cb744f6ae8.gif

I've heard rumors that they pay terrible for people who assemble products and such.

I'm glad this thread turned into what it is but I still haven't found out much about 2 sub no-wall setups. My original goal was a 155 and I did that right out of the gate with not a single bit of testing. I'm hoping I can gain 2db on music and 2.5db with a burp. That'll put me at 157 on music and 158 burp. Anyone think that's unrealistic?

You got a couple big numbers to shoot for. Pick an org in which to compete, pick a class, and check the leaderboard.

IMO 55 that plays music without a wall in anything besides a Yugo, CRX, or extra-cab pickup is very impressive. You may find a few tents at the meter with testing and tweaking but I think bigger (audible) gains from where your sitting will be incredibly difficult.