Lithium batteries

  • 6
    Participant count
  • Participant list
Balance them before you assemble them. Then they are all charging the same. Just saying.

We balance all the cells overnight before we assemble the bank. Then when it is assembled they are all charging and discharging together.

View attachment 33014

Not true. Over time, cells "wear" from use and deteriorate at different rates. Internal resistance can increase slightly in a cell and/or capacity could diminish. Either way, the voltage applied across the bank in series gets unevenly distributed among cells. This uneven energy distribution causes further degradation. At least that's how it works with smaller battery packs. I don't think this lithium chemistry would be immune to the same damages.

Although, as previously stated, they can probably be run without a balancing circuit for a long time. Even if I only got another year of lifespan, I still think it would be worth a $40 balancing circuit.

Also, is that a Skar ZVX hiding in the background?
 
Not true. Over time, cells "wear" from use and deteriorate at different rates. Internal resistance can increase slightly in a cell and/or capacity could diminish. Either way, the voltage applied across the bank in series gets unevenly distributed among cells. This uneven energy distribution causes further degradation. At least that's how it works with smaller battery packs. I don't think this lithium chemistry would be immune to the same damages.

Although, as previously stated, they can probably be run without a balancing circuit for a long time. Even if I only got another year of lifespan, I still think it would be worth a $40 balancing circuit.

Also, is that a Skar ZVX hiding in the background?

I'm not even sure what a balancing circuit is. I run my system and then put it on a trickle charger at night. Yes, that's a ZVX in the background. Subs are always laying around like these other ones. 18's.

Screenshot_20211018-211100_Gallery.jpg
 
I'm not even sure what a balancing circuit is. I run my system and then put it on a trickle charger at night. Yes, that's a ZVX in the background. Suns are always laying around like these other ones. 18's.

View attachment 33016
A balancing circuit evens out the resting of cells when sitting at full charge.
Nice, I'm planning to try out a ZVX next.
 
A balancing circuit evens out the resting of cells when sitting at full charge.
Nice, I'm planning to try out a ZVX next.

You need to balance them before assembly of the bank. Some cells were at .2 volts and others were at 2.6 volts when we opened the box and checked them. After we balanced them and assembled them the bank was reading this before any kind of charging was done.

20210520_193822.jpg
 
You need to balance them before assembly of the bank. Some cells were at .2 volts and others were at 2.6 volts when we opened the box and checked them. After we balanced them and assembled them the bank was reading this before any kind of charging was done.

View attachment 33017

Interesting. I'm guessing they were at different charge states because some may have undergone random QC tests.
 
some of the new lithium chemistries that perform great are unstable/dangerous
Generally speaking, the ones that have the highest power density (good where space/weight saving are top priority) are the more unstable and potentially dangerous ones. I lit my yard on fire a few years back shooting at an old laptop when I hit the battery pack in that, the flammable type lithium cells are definitely no joke and I'd never consider something like that in a car.

When you say 5S or 6S, does that mean a 5 cell bank or 6 cell bank?
Shorthand when we discuss lithium cell banks. S = Series, P = Parallel.

The Lishen cells are rated at 15C/50C. 15C being the maximum recommended continuous pull (270A), and 50C being the absolute maximum rated draw (900A).
My guy in China says those cells are legit, but I think if you look at the ratings you'll see best cycle life and overall performance more around 3 and 10C respectively. For the small cost/weight/space, why cheap out and try to redline these? Mind you, I'm planning on doing some torture testing on my Toshiba cells whenever I get a chance to get them built up and do testing, but barring 3 second burp only application I'm not trying to skimp on a bank in a vehicle.

I wouldn't get hung up on the rail voltage thing in those "Smart" amps. It's the same thing JL has done for decades now, more or less, and they perform fine for every day music applications.

Good you bought a house already, they're not getting cheaper probably ever.

Although, as previously stated, they can probably be run without a balancing circuit for a long time. Even if I only got another year of lifespan, I still think it would be worth a $40 balancing circuit.

For what, a 400$ battery bank? Bear in mind you're only buying/building bussing once. You'd spend 400$ on parts store AGMs to run a 3K amp (and not nearly as well) and be happy to get 4 years out of them before they're only worth the core return. Give it a whirl, but I'd say if you're that concerned just take them out a couple times a year and replace any cells that aren't within spec of the others. I suppose only time will tell what's best and certainly if you get a dud cell it'll cause trouble, but these are built to take a good bit of abuse and last a very long time. Do give it a whirl and report back though. I was considering adding something when I got mine but at the time there was no off-the-shelf solution for this sort of thing and honestly with the amount of current we're running in and out of these I'm not really sure it's going to matter much either way for our applications. If I were doing a big solar bank for the house or something, sure I'd be looking at balancing but you'd be dealing with low enough current that charging and discharging could all be done through some sort of BMS system.
 
Generally speaking, the ones that have the highest power density (good where space/weight saving are top priority) are the more unstable and potentially dangerous ones. I lit my yard on fire a few years back shooting at an old laptop when I hit the battery pack in that, the flammable type lithium cells are definitely no joke and I'd never consider something like that in a car.

Yeah, and unfortunately, the current additives that increase stability/safety also hinder performance. That's one of the topics in the paper I'm working on. The instability of the chemistry is what makes it so great for charging/discharging rapidly.

Shorthand when we discuss lithium cell banks. S = Series, P = Parallel.
Thank you for the clarification!

My guy in China says those cells are legit, but I think if you look at the ratings you'll see best cycle life and overall performance more around 3 and 10C respectively. For the small cost/weight/space, why cheap out and try to redline these? Mind you, I'm planning on doing some torture testing on my Toshiba cells whenever I get a chance to get them built up and do testing, but barring 3 second burp only application I'm not trying to skimp on a bank in a vehicle.

Are there other cells around that price range you would recommend? I could get 2 banks of the Lishen cells for the price of the XS ones.

I wouldn't get hung up on the rail voltage thing in those "Smart" amps. It's the same thing JL has done for decades now, more or less, and they perform fine for every day music applications.

The ZVX is only 1500 watts RMS. It only has a 3" coil, so I don't think I'll be pushing the Smart 3k too hard. I usually like to have an "overpowered" amp for subs, so I can supply the sub with plenty of clean power without pushing the amp to clipping. I'm assuming I'll be smelling coil before I draw too much current with the amp.

Good you bought a house already, they're not getting cheaper probably ever.

Yeah, I got it when rates were really low too.

For what, a 400$ battery bank? Bear in mind you're only buying/building bussing once. You'd spend 400$ on parts store AGMs to run a 3K amp (and not nearly as well) and be happy to get 4 years out of them before they're only worth the core return. Give it a whirl, but I'd say if you're that concerned just take them out a couple times a year and replace any cells that aren't within spec of the others. I suppose only time will tell what's best and certainly if you get a dud cell it'll cause trouble, but these are built to take a good bit of abuse and last a very long time. Do give it a whirl and report back though. I was considering adding something when I got mine but at the time there was no off-the-shelf solution for this sort of thing and honestly with the amount of current we're running in and out of these I'm not really sure it's going to matter much either way for our applications. If I were doing a big solar bank for the house or something, sure I'd be looking at balancing but you'd be dealing with low enough current that charging and discharging could all be done through some sort of BMS system.

For $40, I thought it would be worth it. You're right, at least the bus bars would be reusable. I'll balance the cells when I get them, and just check each cell once a month.
 
If you are going to do front battery delete, lithium in rear of vehicle only, go with at least 40ah . Even though C rate is better with Li, ah is still ah ... And def stick with LTO chemistry.
 
If you are going to do front battery delete, lithium in rear of vehicle only, go with at least 40ah . Even though C rate is better with Li, ah is still ah ... And def stick with LTO chemistry.

Thanks, really leaning towards a bank of the XS YinLong cells now.
Will probably pull the trigger on a bank of those unless @hispls has any other recommendations.
 
Thanks, really leaning towards a bank of the XS YinLong cells now.
Will probably pull the trigger on a bank of those unless @hispls has any other recommendations.
Like I said, my brother and I have been using the YingLong cells for around 3 years now and they're rock solid so far. I see lots of them in the area and nobody is having troubles. Not sure I'd pay the premium for the XS power logo wrapped around them myself. I've got some extras here, but not sure how to go about shipping Lithium, so I mostly planned to re-sell to locals. LMK if you strike out in your search and I might could help you on the YingLong if you want to go that way.

I was tempted to try the Lishen cells but went for Toshiba instead my last order. Price per amp hour is pretty comparable and I figured the square SCIB cells might be more convenient and even more space saving than round ones. SO far out of all the LTO cells people are buying to use for car audio I have not heard any bad reports of any of them from my source in China or around the community so you'll get your money's worth either way I think. Just pick a cell you like the looks of or you think will be easiest to bus together and go for it.
 
Like I said, my brother and I have been using the YingLong cells for around 3 years now and they're rock solid so far. I see lots of them in the area and nobody is having troubles. Not sure I'd pay the premium for the XS power logo wrapped around them myself. I've got some extras here, but not sure how to go about shipping Lithium, so I mostly planned to re-sell to locals. LMK if you strike out in your search and I might could help you on the YingLong if you want to go that way.

I was tempted to try the Lishen cells but went for Toshiba instead my last order. Price per amp hour is pretty comparable and I figured the square SCIB cells might be more convenient and even more space saving than round ones. SO far out of all the LTO cells people are buying to use for car audio I have not heard any bad reports of any of them from my source in China or around the community so you'll get your money's worth either way I think. Just pick a cell you like the looks of or you think will be easiest to bus together and go for it.

The blue YinLong cells are $400 on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MXL33GC/?tag=caraudiocom-20

The XS cells are $380 on Droppin Hz:
https://www.droppinhzcaraudio.com/c.../group-buy-yinlong-40ah-pack-of-6-by-xs-power

Or, are there cheaper places to get the yinlongs?

Links for the Toshiba and SCIB cells?
 
Or, are there cheaper places to get the yinlongs?

Links for the Toshiba and SCIB cells?
https://srikobatteries.com/product/...peak-discharge-lithium-titanate-battery-cell/
Those are the ones I have here. I put together a 5s bank to try in my 4 wheeler the other day. I'm really sick of dropping 100$ every year on parts store batteries for that thing.

The Plannano cells are supposedly nice as well for a high C rating, my guy in China also recommended those. Not sure about the 20AH Toshiba cells those guys have. I was told that Toshiba has a new 20AH cell with similar performance to the 10AH cell but the C rating on the ones on that site is much lower than the 10AH versions. The ones in stock there may be the other style. Toshiba website has a little info and some published specs on the SCIB cells in PDF form and if you do some digging you can find some spec sheets for most of those other cells. Not sure if the American re-sellers have those spec sheets or if they'll share.

That site had YingLong 40s for like 60$ a pop a couple weeks ago when I was price checking but I don't see them now so they may be out. 380$ for 6 for the XS branded ones might not be that bad these days, I ordered mine late July and I know freight prices have gone up dramatically at least once since then.
 
Just placed an order for the XS 40ah cells and a Taramps smart 3.

Going to see how big of a box I can fit in my trunk before I buy the sub. I'm planning to make a 2x4 "frame" of a box to test fit before buying/cutting some birch. The trunk dimensions are kinda weird, and I want to make sure how big of a box I can jimmy through the trunk opening before I buy a sub and build a box that won't fit.
 
Activity
No one is currently typing a reply...

Similar threads

Not good for introducing new guys to lithium Lots of burned down cars from user error because the tech is new and people are ignorant.
24
2K
I think the guidelines want members to have a picture with your forum username and current date in the picture to avoid scammers. :)
1
607
Truth be told, only a few people that put together large (as in my case, 2000-3000) wattage systems are pulling the numbers that they THINK they...
23
2K
14.6 is max charge for headway. 3.65 volts per cell. There should not be any voltage drop from your alternator wiring to battery so 14.8 is too high.
1
2K

About this thread

adulbrich

5,000+ posts
Olive oil un-virginer
Thread starter
adulbrich
Joined
Location
Ames, Iowa
Start date
Participants
Who Replied
Replies
58
Views
23,143
Last reply date
Last reply from
Popwarhomie
1000007733.jpg

Mr FaceCaser

    Apr 26, 2024
  • 0
  • 0
Pod on dash 1.jpeg

Doxquzme

    Apr 26, 2024
  • 0
  • 0

Latest topics

Top