Why Run A Ground Wire From The Battery to the amp?

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

man I just keep having to correct you.
Operating under the assumption that your lights are the same wattage and all other electronics are doing the same thing as before you will not experience more dimming from a properly installed big 3. Now many will remove stock wiring or use poor connections or be lazy compared to the stock wiring.

Why is that? Because items like lights, radios, amps, and everything else PULL current, they do not have power pushed into them. They pull current from the source, now the highway to get to that source may change when you upgrade the big 3, but your lights will not be brighter than the 80w they were before, nor will the radio use more juice. Now you may make more power out of your amp, but if your amp was already struggling for juice your lights were already dimming. If you do adjust your amps settings to make it run harder and pull more juice and attempt to make more power you may make dimming worse.

That bolded part irks me more than anything you will ever know, because that means you didn't learn a **** thing that I tried to explain to you.

The same thing will happen in the boat as would happen in a car, the fuse will pop or the wire will catch fire, and your battery will drain severly and possibly explode.

Sure in a car if your power wire "grounds out" to the frame it will weld itself to it, but thats the only difference in the boat example. and even then the same thing will happen, fire or blown fuses

I'd have to disagree. Example. You have 500 watts from alt battery etc. The connect from Alt to battery has poor wiring is does amp to battery and battery to ground. Because the amp can't pull 14.4 volts or enough watts as it is an underpowered system more current is drawn from the power source and more power is lost through resistance as heat causing your headlights to dim. However they don't dim serverly because they are using 10ga wire to power them properly, which matches the resistance in the wires to your amp. So teh headlights are pulling 110 watts and your amp is only able to pull what it can and is underpowered making it less efficient and unable to pull its maximum load.

So you upgrade to 0ga and do the big 3, now your amp is able to **** all the power it needs from the alternator because there is very little resistance, and even though your losing less power through more efficient voltage to the amp, and especialy due to less resistance in the lines, the headlights and their wiring now have much more resistance than the power lines feeding your amps. So when the bass hits, the power drawn by the amp is utilized before the power drawn by the headlights, making the dimming worse. Of course, your still one step closer to correcting the problem, (underpowered alternator), and are operating more efficiently wasting less power. At least your stereo is louder now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

However this is generaly not the case, usualy the extra power saved by upgrading can stop the dimming of the headlights, but in certain cases it can make the dimming worse.

Now if you saying amps defy physics and electricity will suddenly flow in the path of greatest resistance then I'll have to take out my Magic Flux capacitor and head back to the future with no passenger.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

You do realize everything you just said is absolutely retarded right?

 

[bass-aholic 10+ year member]

im glad im not an idiot //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

You do realize everything you just said is absolutely retarded right?

It's the most basic physics, electricity flows to the path of least resistance. If you upgrade the Big 3, it Can cause more dimming. It's only obvious and makes sense, however generaly the more efficient wiring would help not hinder.

maybe your retarded for not understanding.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

It's the most basic physics, electricity flows to the path of least resistance. If you upgrade the Big 3, it Can cause more dimming. It's only obvious and makes sense, however generaly the more efficient wiring would help not hinder.
maybe your retarded for not understanding.

No, what you said makes no sense. The only way that would work is if you did the big 3 improperly, meaning you missed wires or do not have strong connections. The only thing that can increase dimming is more current pull. If you increase the flow of current and pull stays the same, how can that increase dimming?

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

I'd have to disagree. Example. You have 500 watts from alt battery etc. The connect from Alt to battery has poor wiring is does amp to battery and battery to ground. Because the amp can't pull 14.4 volts or enough watts as it is an underpowered system more current is drawn from the power source and more power is lost through resistance as heat causing your headlights to dim. However they don't dim serverly because they are using 10ga wire to power them properly, which matches the resistance in the wires to your amp. So teh headlights are pulling 110 watts and your amp is only able to pull what it can and is underpowered making it less efficient and unable to pull its maximum load.
So you upgrade to 0ga and do the big 3, now your amp is able to **** all the power it needs from the alternator because there is very little resistance, and even though your losing less power through more efficient voltage to the amp, and especialy due to less resistance in the lines, the headlights and their wiring now have much more resistance than the power lines feeding your amps. So when the bass hits, the power drawn by the amp is utilized before the power drawn by the headlights, making the dimming worse. Of course, your still one step closer to correcting the problem, (underpowered alternator), and are operating more efficiently wasting less power. At least your stereo is louder now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

However this is generaly not the case, usualy the extra power saved by upgrading can stop the dimming of the headlights, but in certain cases it can make the dimming worse.

Now if you saying amps defy physics and electricity will suddenly flow in the path of greatest resistance then I'll have to take out my Magic Flux capacitor and head back to the future with no passenger.

Ok Jackass, you obviously have no idea about physics, electricity, or anything. Go take a basic electronics class and come back. your smart *** comments about a flux capacitor can go somewhere else. I tried to help you and you say shit like that. You absolutely are the dumbest person on this board, and that is a feat.

I tried reading this 3 times and couldn't figure out what the hell you were trying to say in bold.

Let me tell the rest of the people who are reading this thread how it really works.

Alternator is 100 amps ( for simplicity of example sake )

Your headlights are 120 watt ( yea big bright ones, only chose this becauze 120/12 = 10 amps //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif )

With stock electrical and no setup your car pulls say 80 amps with everything on ( AC/lights/horn/cd player/abs/etc ) so you have 20 amps leftover for your stereo.

You add a small 500 watt amp ( yea your example and at say 80% effieciency thats ~50amps of current) So your already over 30 amps the alternator will support so your going to experience some dimming.

We decide "Hey lets upgrade to the Big 3 and maybe that will help my dimming, but this jackass says it 'may' make it worse" Well lets see here I keep all my stock wiring, solder and crimp all my connections using quality ring terminals. Now what have I done?

Stock wiring on all the vehicles I have upgraded (mostly small imports never did a suv so i dont know ) have been around 8gauge wire. Well by increasing the size of the wire you "add more lanes to the highway to help with power getting backed up on the wire during rush hour ( when your pulling all 50 amps with your 500w amp ), but hey my ole trusty carpool lane ( ie the wiring for my headlights etc ) is unaffected.

Now with a stock alternator your probably not stressing the limits of the alternator wiring at idle that much, but if you can rev your motor past idle ( normally 5-6k alternator rpm or 1500-2000 rpm engine rpm ) you will see pretty decent gains, and with a even larger alternator you see even more.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

No, what you said makes no sense. The only way that would work is if you did the big 3 improperly, meaning you missed wires or do not have strong connections. The only thing that can increase dimming is more current pull. If you increase the flow of current and pull stays the same, how can that increase dimming?

Already explained it. The alternator is underpowered. The amp cannot pull enough current due to small wire diameter. headlights dim slightly. So the guy does the big 3 which allows the amp to pull more power, since the alt is still underpowered, and the headlight setup now has more resistance than the amp's setup, the available power will flow to the amp instead of the headlights.

it's still a step in the right direction (more efficient wiring, more total power utilized) but now less power is being distributed to the headlights.

basicaly something like this (not a real work example)

Alt-500 watts

500 watt Amp able to pull 370 watts with 50 watt loss due to resistance = 420 watts

Headlights 110 watts

So the headlights drop when the amp hits.

Big 3 is added

Alt 500 watts

500 watt amp Able to draw 450 watts 5 watt loss (reduced) due to big 3 upgrade.

headlights only able to draw 45 watts when bass hits. -still need 110.

Your amp will be louder and you gained 45 watts of power for the whole system, but more of it is being pulled to the path of least resistance.

In the end you are a step closer to fixing the issue regarless if the lights dim more. problem is you need a more efficient or smaller amp or larger alternator.

Flipside:

380 watt amp able to pull 370 watts with 50 watt loss due to resistance = 420 watts

headlights only able to draw 80 watts when bass hits (Headlights 110 watts)

Big 3 is added

380 watt amp is able to pull 380 watts with 5 watts lost in resistance = 385 watts

headlights are able to draw 110 watts with 5 watts to spare.

Of course it's much more complicated than that Variable power rate of alternators, and even headlight startup vs running (HID), Variable pull of current from amp, voltage flux, variable storage of power from battery etc. These numbers would never really exist, its just an example.

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

Already explained it. The alternator is underpowered. The amp cannot pull enough current due to small wire diameter. headlights dim slightly. So the guy does the big 3 when allows teh amp to pull more power, since the alt is still underpowered, and the headlight setup now has more resistance than the amp's setups, the available power will flow to the amp instead of the headlights.
it's still a step in the right direction (more efficient wiring, more total power utilized) but now less power is being distributed to the headlights.

basicaly something like this (not a real work example)

Alt-500 watts

500 watt Amp able to pull 370 watts with 50 watt loss due to resistance = 420 watts

Headlights 110 watts

So the headlights drop when the amp hits.

Big 3 is added

Alt 500 watts

500 watt amp Able to draw 450 watts 5 watt loss (reduced) due to big 3 upgrade.

headlights only able to draw 45 watts when bass hits. -still need 110.

Your amp will be louder and you gained 45 watts of power for the whole system, but more of it is being pulled to the path of least resistance.

In the end you are a step closer to fixing the issue regarless if the lights dim more. problem is you need a more efficient or smaller amp or larger alternator.

Flipside:

380 watt amp able to pull 370 watts with 50 watt loss due to resistance = 420 watts

headlights only able to draw 80 watts when bass hits (Headlights 110 watts)

Big 3 is added

380 watt amp is able to pull 380 watts with 5 watts lost in resistance = 385 watts

headlights are able to draw 110 watts with 5 watts to spare.

Of course it's much more complicated than that Variable power rate of alternators, and even headlight startup vs running (HID), Variable pull of current from amp, voltage flux, variable storage of power from battery etc. These numbers would never really exist, its just an example.

what flunky physics class did you take?

And what about your battery? Your completely forgetting that. Battery is a HUGE variable in the equation and when the alternator is being used completly you draw from that. You are looking at this completely and utterly wrong

You also are missing the fact that a load PULLS juice through the path of least resistance. so the headlights aren't going to be starved for it.

Also the wiring for the headlight is going to be built into the harness and should be shorter than the wire for your amp, and even tho it is a smaller gauge wire it doesnt matter because it is a low amperage load

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Ok Jackass, you obviously have no idea about physics, electricity, or anything. Go take a basic electronics class and come back. your smart *** comments about a flux capacitor can go somewhere else. I tried to help you and you say shit like that. You absolutely are the dumbest person on this board, and that is a feat.
I tried reading this 3 times and couldn't figure out what the hell you were trying to say in bold.

Let me tell the rest of the people who are reading this thread how it really works.

Alternator is 100 amps ( for simplicity of example sake )

Your headlights are 120 watt ( yea big bright ones, only chose this becauze 120/12 = 10 amps //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif )

With stock electrical and no setup your car pulls say 80 amps with everything on ( AC/lights/horn/cd player/abs/etc ) so you have 20 amps leftover for your stereo.

You add a small 500 watt amp ( yea your example and at say 80% effieciency thats ~50amps of current) So your already over 30 amps the alternator will support so your going to experience some dimming.

We decide "Hey lets upgrade to the Big 3 and maybe that will help my dimming, but this jackass says it 'may' make it worse" Well lets see here I keep all my stock wiring, solder and crimp all my connections using quality ring terminals. Now what have I done?

Stock wiring on all the vehicles I have upgraded (mostly small imports never did a suv so i dont know ) have been around 8gauge wire. Well by increasing the size of the wire you "add more lanes to the highway to help with power getting backed up on the wire during rush hour ( when your pulling all 50 amps with your 500w amp ), but hey my ole trusty carpool lane ( ie the wiring for my headlights etc ) is unaffected.

Now with a stock alternator your probably not stressing the limits of the alternator wiring at idle that much, but if you can rev your motor past idle ( normally 5-6k alternator rpm or 1500-2000 rpm engine rpm ) you will see pretty decent gains, and with a even larger alternator you see even more.

Dont give me that more lanes on the highway shit. I happed to ace my college physics classes.

Who are you my mother?

Ignorent dumb ***** such as yourself always have to prove yourself right and put down others. Big man on the internet forum? Well calm your E-peen down and take a deep breath. I have been agreeing with you all along, but every time you tell me "no you don't understand go take EE class". I even agreed with your example above. You obviously dont even understand the basics. You don't even understand the difference between grouding a device and grounding to complete a circuit as was mentioned when you brought up the boats. So what if I typo'd some stuff while I'm at work trying to fend for myself against all these people. I can re-write the sentence if you wish but holy hell get off my dick.

"The connect from Alt to battery has poor wiring is does amp to battery and battery to ground" should read: If the connection from Alternator to the battery has poor wiring, and so does the wiring from the amp to the battery and from the battery to the ground." So I cut and past a few times and didn't re-read. Sue me. This isn't College level stuff it's basic Physics, V=IR status shenanigans

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

what flunky physics class did you take?
And what about your battery? Your completely forgetting that. Battery is a HUGE variable in the equation and when the alternator is being used completly you draw from that. You are looking at this completely and utterly wrong

You also are missing the fact that a load PULLS juice through the path of least resistance. so the headlights aren't going to be starved for it.

Also the wiring for the headlight is going to be built into the harness and should be shorter than the wire for your amp, and even tho it is a smaller gauge wire it doesnt matter because it is a low amperage load

This was not to complicate matters but show a case where upgrading the big 3 can make things worse, were not taking into consideration all the variables as i already posted above. This holds especialy true when the wire running from alt to battery is already more than sufficient from the factory, meaning the only place your vastly improving the setup is between the amp and the battery. Basicaly allowing the amp to feed off more of the available power while the headlights are not touched (even if you now have more available power due to greater efficiency of the wires, it still may not be enough!). I never said the Big3 was bad, I run it myself, In most cases it helps way more than it hurts, I just mentioned that there are situations where it can hinder the headlight dimming problem.

I have a feeling I may run into this problem on one of my vehicles that has the tinyest alternator ever while the connections are likely more than sufficent from the factory. Adding larger wire might net me some watts, but it will also allow the amp to draw more power from the battery since the alternator will be maxed out already, which could cause teh headlights to dim even more than when I was starving the amp.. Of course these depends on ALOT of variables.

Did I not say the load PULLS? I believe I used Pulls/draws in every part of my example smartass

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

Dont give me that more lanes on the highway shit. I happed to ace my college physics classes.
Who are you my mother?

Ignorent dumb ***** such as yourself always have to prove yourself right and put down others. Big man on the internet forum? Well calm your E-peen down and take a deep breath. have been agreeing with you all along, but every time you tell me "no you don't understand go take EE class". When you obviously dont even understand the basics. You don't even understand the difference between grouding a device and grounding to complete a circuit as was mentioned when you brought up the boats.

LOL i dont understand basic electronics. You sir are a fool who didn't even know how a battery worked. If you ace'd your college physics class I pity anyone else who got a degree from the clown college.

I'm ignorant? Sorry.

And no I wouldn't say You have agreed with me all along, in the beginning you said that the chassis of a car was what held the negative charge of a battery.

and to the bold, Grounding a device and grounding to complete a circuit are the same thing. Unless your talking about lightening and true ground (ie EARTH) there is no difference.

If you can truly show me 1 time where I'm wrong and by grounding something your not completing a circuit I'll admit im wrong, but I know for a fact I'm not. You cannot flow electricity without a complete circuit

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

OK, I quit. Go grab a couple big amps and use your chassis for a ground and don't do the big three and see if you don't run into problems.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some horses just need to be drowned

 

[Pl8er 5,000+ posts]

So I've been trying to read all of this but can someone cliff this?

Would running from battery to the amps be the best ground?

Thx //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

This was not to complicate matters but show a case where upgrading the big 3 can make things worse, were not taking into consideration all the variables as i already posted above. http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316184&page=3 Basicaly allowing the amp to feed off more of the available power while the headlights are not touched. I never said the Big3 was bad I run it myself, I just mentioned that there are situations where it can hinder the headlight dimming problem.
I have a feeling I may run into this problem on one of my vehicles that has the tinyest alternator ever while the connections are likely more than sufficent from the factory.

what ignorant automobile company would put wiring in the vehicle that is alread insufficient to run all installed accesories.

The only situation in which the big 3 will hinder performance is if you do it incorrectly, as I suspect with your posts on this forum, you did

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

OK, I quit. Go grab a couple big amps and use your chassis for a ground and don't do the big three and see if you don't run into problems.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Some horses just need to be drowned

I agree, this idiot makes only the 2nd one here to go on my ignore list.

I tried, and I can't help him any more. I just pity the poor equipment he is going to break