Why Run A Ground Wire From The Battery to the amp?

[shortyg83 10+ year member]

This is the funniest thread I have ever read in my life. guy is a moron. Try this disconnect your battery and your alts - from the chassis and the block. Now start your car.... oh wait you cant. Why not surely everything else is still connected via the chassis? Where did your ground go?

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Try this disconnect your battery and your alts - from the chassis and the block. Now start your car.... oh wait you cant. Why not surely everything else is still connected via the chassis? Where did your ground go?

You sir, have serious tallent for stating the obvious.

 

[shortyg83 10+ year member]

You sir, have serious tallent for stating the obvious.

You sir have a talent for not getting things.

A car chassis without a battery or alt has no ground to it at all, and that is what people are telling you.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

You sir have a talent for not getting things.A car chassis without a battery or alt has no ground to it at all, and that is what people are telling you.

lol

 

[DDSC 10+ year member]

Well I didnt feel like going through all 8 pages so this is just a starter, everything bolded is a dumbass comment by you or my response to a dumbass comment

Well the battery is grounded into the body/frame/chasis anyways so I don't see the advantage of a longer wire. If your grounding to the battery the battery is not ground

PureSPLprix: you ground DEVICES I.E amps, heater, headlights ect. not power sources

I read it, but it does not make any sense. (Your point is that the battery is a better ground than the body/frame?). How so? What do you think the battery is grounded to? The battery is grounded to the body and/or frame as well. So adding a longer wire should only increase resistance...
Hope someone can explain this to me so that it makes sense.

Ok thanks that would be good, but when jumping your car they ALWAYS recomend jumping to the positive and connecting the negative to the frame so as to avoid blowing up your battery should it not be grounded. So the real ground surely must be the frame.

Well I'm lazy so I use the battery ground as well, but technicaly you are not supposed to, not on the car your trying to jump anyways. Perhaps it is just a means to ensure the battery is properly grounded (car won't start but also will not damage the battery if it is not properly grounded).
The battery's ground itself is not a true ground unless it is grounded. It is a loop in the end but I still can't imagine 0ga would conduct better than 2 box frame rails that are 1000 times more massive?

So if I'm understanding this right your saying the battery terminal is actualy the ground (not the frame) and it's only grounded to the frame so that other items in the car only need a power wire?

You cans ee how to properly jump a car

here http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/roadside/jumpstart.pdf

here http://www.pepboys.com/car_care_corner/car_care_basics/maintenance/jump_starting_your_battery_using_another_car/

here http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/bljumpstart.htm

Electricity flows in the path of least resistance, the frame of the vehicle should be able to absorb more power than negative mass inside small battery hence making the frame on the vehicle the true ground.

PureSPLprix: this would mean that the bat would go dead if u connected it to the car becasue the frame "absorbed" all the energy

Ok I get what your all saying now... I think anyways... but the ground on a car is still the frame not the battery. PureSPLprix: So if the cars off and theres no battery in it, how do you have a ground (in your case the frame) without electricty I mean this is why the earth acts as a ground no? Surely the Dirt conducts pretty shity but the immense size of the earth is what makes it an ideal ground. if lightning strikes is it more likely to strike your battery terminal or the frame? I'll put my money on the frame, but it is even more likely to strike a metal spike embedded in the ground esp since a vehicle itself is not truly grounded due to rubber tires.
The frame of the car should be able to recieve a larger charge of electricity than a hunk 0ga wire connected to a battery. But I suppose this might not be true in my geo metro lol. However my trucks frame is massive and would simulate the closest thing to a true ground rather than the battery. I guess I can understand what you mean when it comes to drawing maximum voltage, but I'm still not convinced, since the battery itself is still grounded to the frame.

No thats not my point. Theres is the batterys negative path and then there is a ground. In homes (ok off topic on AC power) there is the alternating - and + but the GROUND is seperate. I would imagine this is also true with a car.Sure your using the frame as a ground path for the battery, but it's also the end all ground for the vehicle due to its sheer size. Don't forget not all power is from the battery, the majority of it should be coming from the alternator, which is....grounded to the frame![/QUOTE]

To the positive but not to the negative, the Neg from the alternator is grounded to the frame which the battery connects to.PureSPlprix No, the neg from the alternator is CONNECTED to the Frame which is GROUNDED to the battery

What kind of degree can you get in 2 years ?

What happened to the origional lolmaniac?

It did on my old truck, battery would not hold a charge not even enough to power a window or FM radio, but I could still drive around fine. Your right its connected to the block not the frame I was mistaken. Still im going to be ignnorent and assume my frame provides more than enough ground for the battery . But for my geo, I might run a seperate wire now that I have more understanding.
thanks

I'd have to disagree. Example. You have 500 watts from alt battery etc. The connect from Alt to battery has poor wiring is does amp to battery and battery to ground. Because the amp can't pull 14.4 volts or enough watts as it is an underpowered system more current is drawn from the power source and more power is lost through resistance as heat causing your headlights to dim. However they don't dim serverly because they are using 10ga wire to power them properly, which matches the resistance in the wires to your amp. So teh headlights are pulling 110 watts and your amp is only able to pull what it can and is underpowered making it less efficient and unable to pull its maximum load.
So you upgrade to 0ga and do the big 3, now your amp is able to **** all the power it needs from the alternator because there is very little resistance, and even though your losing less power through more efficient voltage to the amp, and especialy due to less resistance in the lines, the headlights and their wiring now have much more resistance than the power lines feeding your amps. So when the bass hits, the power drawn by the amp is utilized before the power drawn by the headlights, making the dimming worse. Of course, your still one step closer to correcting the problem, (underpowered alternator), and are operating more efficiently wasting less power. At least your stereo is louder now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

However this is generaly not the case, usualy the extra power saved by upgrading can stop the dimming of the headlights, but in certain cases it can make the dimming worse.

Now if you saying amps defy physics and electricity will suddenly flow in the path of greatest resistance then I'll have to take out my Magic Flux capacitor and head back to the future with no passenger.

Dont give me that more lanes on the highway shit. I happed to ace my college physics classes.
Who are you my mother?

Ignorent dumb ***** such as yourself always have to prove yourself right and put down others. Big man on the internet forum? Well calm your E-peen down and take a deep breath. I have been agreeing with you all along, but every time you tell me "no you don't understand go take EE class". I even agreed with your example above. You obviously dont even understand the basics. You don't even understand the difference between grouding a device and grounding to complete a circuit

So what is that statement supposed to mean, the battery/car is a circuit, the amp is the device

as was mentioned when you brought up the boats. So what if I typo'd some stuff while I'm at work trying to fend for myself against all these people. I can re-write the sentence if you wish but holy hell get off my dick.

"The connect from Alt to battery has poor wiring is does amp to battery and battery to ground" should read: If the connection from Alternator to the battery has poor wiring, and so does the wiring from the amp to the battery and from the battery to the ground." So I cut and past a few times and didn't re-read. Sue me. This isn't College level stuff it's basic Physics, V=IR status shenanigans

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

No thats not my point. Theres is the batterys negative path and then there is a ground. In homes (ok off topic on AC power) there is the alternating - and + but the GROUND is seperate. I would imagine this is also true with a car.Sure your using the frame as a ground path for the battery, but it's also the end all ground for the vehicle due to its sheer size. Don't forget not all power is from the battery, the majority of it should be coming from the alternator, which is....grounded to the frame!

This is where it was all cleared up. But it took people 4 pages or so of calling names before I was actualy corrected.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Ok thanks that would be good, but when jumping your car they ALWAYS recomend jumping to the positive and connecting the negative to the frame so as to avoid blowing up your battery should it not be grounded. So the real ground surely must be the frame.

See above.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

I read it, but it does not make any sense. (Your point is that the battery is a better ground than the body/frame?). How so? What do you think the battery is grounded to? The battery is grounded to the body and/or frame as well. So adding a longer wire should only increase resistance...

Hope someone can explain this to me so that it makes sense.

See above.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Well the battery is grounded into the body/frame/chasis anyways so I don't see the advantage of a longer wire. If your grounding to the battery the battery is not ground, what it is connected to is the ground. I also heard to never ground into a set bolt hole, but thats what I did, and the bolt goes directly into the frame. But everyone says I should have ran 2 wires. I guess I just can't electricaly see any benefit other than maybe it looks cool or something?

See Above, So the Battery is still not really a ground, it's a loosely used term. Since only homes have a real ground with AC power. Ok I get it.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated Ok I get what your all saying now... I think anyways... but the ground on a car is still the frame not the battery. PureSPLprix: So if the cars off and theres no battery in it, how do you have a ground (in your case the frame) without electricty I mean this is why the earth acts as a ground no? Surely the Dirt conducts pretty shity but the immense size of the earth is what makes it an ideal ground. if lightning strikes is it more likely to strike your battery terminal or the frame? I'll put my money on the frame, but it is even more likely to strike a metal spike embedded in the ground esp since a vehicle itself is not truly grounded due to rubber tires.

The frame of the car should be able to recieve a larger charge of electricity than a hunk 0ga wire connected to a battery. But I suppose this might not be true in my geo metro lol. However my trucks frame is massive and would simulate the closest thing to a true ground rather than the battery. I guess I can understand what you mean when it comes to drawing maximum voltage, but I'm still not convinced, since the battery itself is still grounded to the frame.

see above.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Well I'm lazy so I use the battery ground as well, but technicaly you are not supposed to, not on the car your trying to jump anyways. Perhaps it is just a means to ensure the battery is properly grounded (car won't start but also will not damage the battery if it is not properly grounded).

The battery's ground itself is not a true ground unless it is grounded. It is a loop in the end but I still can't imagine 0ga would conduct better than 2 box frame rails that are 1000 times more massive?

So if I'm understanding this right your saying the battery terminal is actualy the ground (not the frame) and it's only grounded to the frame so that other items in the car only need a power wire?

You cans ee how to properly jump a car

here http://www.cartalk.com/content/featu.../jumpstart.pdf

here http://www.pepboys.com/car_care_corn...g_another_car/

here http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doity...ljumpstart.htm

Electricity flows in the path of least resistance, the frame of the vehicle should be able to absorb more power than negative mass inside small battery hence making the frame on the vehicle the true ground.

See Above.

Originally Posted by Justintoxicated It did on my old truck, battery would not hold a charge not even enough to power a window or FM radio, but I could still drive around fine. Your right its connected to the block not the frame I was mistaken. Still im going to be ignnorent and assume my frame provides more than enough ground *path* for the battery . But for my geo, I might run a seperate wire now that I have more understanding.

thanks

Ok so why didn't people just correct me from the beginning in that Ground on a Car is a not a true ground, and that it differs from AC Ground. It could have been said in a much easier fashion than bashing a simple question in the help forum. I know how DC power works, but I was under the wrong ipression that the battery must also be grounded as with AC. I hardly think that makes me a fool. moron, dumbshit, etc.

 

[DDSC 10+ year member]

This is where it was all cleared up. But it took people 4 pages or so of calling names before I was actualy corrected.
Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

No thats not my point. Theres is the batterys negative path and then there is a ground. In homes (ok off topic on AC power) there is the alternating - and + but the GROUND is seperate. I would imagine this is also true with a car.

Sure your using the frame as a ground path for the battery, but it's also the end all ground for the vehicle due to its sheer size. Don't forget not all power is from the battery, the majority of it should be coming from the alternator, which is....grounded to the frame!

Ok so why didn't people just correct me from the beginning in that Ground on a Car is a not a true ground, and that it differs from AC Ground. It could have been said in a much easier fashion than bashing a simple question in the help forum. I know how DC power works, but I was under the wrong ipression that the battery must also be grounded as with AC. I hardly think that makes me a fool. moron, dumbshit, etc.

you didnt say anything about that untill 3-4 pages in and theres nothing wrong with having a wrong impression, but when you have people telling you that you have the wrong impression and trying to explain and you keep telling them you know, "no it goes like this", you can expect to be made fun of

 

[jrwalte 10+ year member]

The boat example is interesting, I wonder what happens when there is an electrical short, I would guess you smoke the battery or alternator, or melt the wires since it has no frame to ground to?

There is no 'ground' in a car where electricity can just 'escape' to and dissipate like it can in a home with a grounding rod in the earth or even just using the neutral path along your electrical line to the grounding rod the electrical company installed on a telephone pole/under the ground.

A car's frame in no way can ever 'absorb' electricity. This is why you can fry your car's electrical if you short it (touch pos to neg). What happens is the electricity has nowhere to go except back to the battery negative and it just keeps doing this and doing this causing a huge surge which will explode your battery/melt wires until you break the pos/neg connection (which is what a fuse does).

Answer this:

If the car's frame is not grounded to the earth (and it needs to be at least 6+ feet deep to be an affective ground), then how can the car frame 'dissipate' this electricity as you claim it can?

People misuse the term 'ground' in a vehicle. It isn't a ground at all. It's a negative. There is no 'ground' in a vehicle because the vehicle has no metal rod going deep into the earth to create a 'ground'.

Edit

I see this was already discussed //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

And 'ground' has nothing to do with AC. DC could have a ground as well. It's just a term to say that the power source has a path to the earth. Many homes in the US to this day still don't have their own ground. They 'ground' through the neutral of the AC line coming into their home. I believe grounding rods in homes became code in the 70s or 80s. That's a complete guess though.

 

[pr-festiva 10+ year member]

If electrons are neg. charged wouldnt they flow from the negitive post through the frame or the wire run through the electronic device then return on the positive run?. Or did they switch the posts around along time a go so that its the other way around now?

 

[slapmaster 10+ year member]

i learned something in the first two pages of this thread. but i did not read the rest.

got the feeling it was going to become a war of words.

 

[Lakota 5,000+ posts]

If electrons are neg. charged wouldnt they flow from the negitive post through the frame or the wire run through the electronic device then return on the positive run?. Or did they switch the posts around along time a go so that its the other way around now?

In electrical engineering we like to think of current as the flow of positive charge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Conven_current.PNG

 

[Lakota 5,000+ posts]

Current can flow either way through a battery. Energy is supplied when current flows out of the positive end and energy is absorbed (charging) when current flows into the positive end.

 

[SPLFAME&FORTUNE]

Electricity will take any path available to try to return to the source

Current will seek its source. It takes any and all paths available. The amount of current flowing in each path is dependant on the impedance of that particular path.

If several paths are available for current to flow, it will divide and the resistance of each path will determine how much current will flow on each particular path.

 

[jrwalte 10+ year member]

In the experience of my vehicle I've found that connecting the negative run directly to my alt (my HO alt has a ground bolt molded in the casting) gives a path of less resistance to my amps than my negative battery post does. So grounding a dedicated negative run from the amps to your battery is not always the best choice. You have to test and determine in your situation what works best or what is adequate for the equipment you run.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

If you ran a large wire from the alt bolt to the bat neg and then to the amps, you'd accomplish part of the big 3 and have a great connection for the amps.