Solving The EQ Problem

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

I have a passive setup with the comps up front using the Morel Tempo 6 Xover Unit that came with them. Here is all the specs you'd ever want to know I believe. I elected to not attenuate the tweeter -3db and left it at zero.
Overall Specs:

http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tempo-2-way.pdf

Manual (Includes a rough Xover graph showing x over around 4K)

http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TEMPO_2-way_5_6.pdf

I see.

What head unit and amps are the comps running off of. Maybe you can ditch the passive crossover? Separate level control and time alignment from mid and tweet would definitely help. As of now, the gain and time alignment are tied together between them.

Iunderstand you want both sides to have the same level, so that way "sounds good to everybody". But, doing it this way is limiting you from further SQ. Rock suffers the most because there is lots of dynamics, which time alignment and separate L/R level and EQ control is the biggest help to improve that

Even after tuning for one seat, the passenger side will still sound good.

 

[Elvenking]

You know, I was just out there again with my little phone-based RTA and calibrated mic adjusting a bit again...then I put some stuff on....blam...sounds really, really nice. Most would probably wonder what the hell it is I am complaining about for sure. However, I will always run into a CD that just gets a bit "honky" or "shrill" in certain areas. I might be messing with my own head pretty good too, I have a collection of like 700+ CD's from Miami Bass, to rock, to metal...the whole gamut. I admit...some stuff I put on there wouldn't sound good to anyone...but I try you know....it is nice to have the flexibility to try to make something that sounds like a$$ sound good. I simply cannot go from Bass 305 or Techmaster PEB to something like Heavy Metal a la Disturbed without making some adjustments. maybe I just have to start collecting presets for some of these off recordings.

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

You know, I was just out there again with my little phone-based RTA and calibrated mic adjusting a bit again...then I put some stuff on....blam...sounds really, really nice. Most would probably wonder what the hell it is I am complaining about for sure. However, I will always run into a CD that just gets a bit "honky" or "shrill" in certain areas. I might be messing with my own head pretty good too, I have a collection of like 700+ CD's from Miami Bass, to rock, to metal...the whole gamut. I admit...some stuff I put on there wouldn't sound good to anyone...but I try you know....it is nice to have the flexibility to try to make something that sounds like a$$ sound good. I simply cannot go from Bass 305 or Techmaster PEB to something like Heavy Metal a la Disturbed without making some adjustments. maybe I just have to start collecting presets for some of these off recordings.

You shouldn't have to make adjustments if tuned properly

 

[Elvenking]

I see.What head unit and amps are the comps running off of. Maybe you can ditch the passive crossover? Separate level control and time alignment from mid and tweet would definitely help. As of now, the gain and time alignment are tied together between them.

Iunderstand you want both sides to have the same level, so that way "sounds good to everybody". But, doing it this way is limiting you from further SQ. Rock suffers the most because there is lots of dynamics, which time alignment and separate L/R level and EQ control is the biggest help to improve that

Even after tuning for one seat, the passenger side will still sound good.

I did discover that I do not have time correction with my head unit first of all...major bummer. I can see the setting in the TuneIt app that comes with the Alpine...but when it connects...it removes these settings...looks like I am a model too low for that or something. So it makes the PRS80 look even better.

An active setup does sound sweet but I smell money burning again...LOL. I know I will have to fork a little out to make some changes...I just want to get the best lead on the ones I should make. I have heard that you can get some great sound this way. I currently have a JL Audio JX360/x2 running the comps...so I can't pull it off with this amp alone. I'll have to get a different multichannel amp with more xover points or something that will allow this setup. Any recommendations?

In the back it's just a Kicker 300.1 Amp driving a Polk Audio DVC 12 crossed over at 160 with rock and metal, and I move it to about 80Hz with Drum and Bass stuff.

 

[Elvenking]

You shouldn't have to make adjustments if tuned properly

I believe that this is not entirely true....what if you like bass in your older heavy metal and you just got done playing Miami bass...I guarantee you, you will be adjusting your sub. Otherwise you will just do without hard hitting bass in your rock music. The average bass levels in the recordings are simply worlds apart and will show on a flat system, RTA and anything else you can find. Ridiculous amounts of low end on say Bass 305...and nearly any on something like Ratt - Out of the Cellar. My guess is that most are just not as picky as me. I understand that I have some stuff to learn here...but to say that I shouldn't have to adjust anything ever again once I have it set right sounds like more of a wish. I would certainly eagerly await the solution that would get me there though. So far...it doesn't seem to be the setup I have though.

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

I did discover that I do not have time correction with my head unit first of all...major bummer. I can see the setting in the TuneIt app that comes with the Alpine...but when it connects...it removes these settings...looks like I am a model too low for that or something. So it makes the PRS80 look even better.
An active setup does sound sweet but I smell money burning again...LOL. I know I will have to fork a little out to make some changes...I just want to get the best lead on the ones I should make. I have heard that you can get some great sound this way. I currently have a JL Audio JX360/x2 running the comps...so I can't pull it off with this amp alone. I'll have to get a different multichannel amp with more xover points or something that will allow this setup. Any recommendations?

In the back it's just a Kicker 300.1 Amp driving a Polk Audio DVC 12 crossed over at 160 with rock and metal, and I move it to about 80Hz with Drum and Bass stuff.

Well, the 80prs will be all you need as far as processing goes.

It does everything.

Any decent amp fur the other drivers will work. The prs will handle everything else.

I ran the prs, great unit.

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

You could try centering frequency bands with the fader, i don't know how effectivet your setup will at doing that though currently.

 

[Elvenking]

Well, the 80prs will be all you need as far as processing goes.It does everything.

Any decent amp fur the other drivers will work. The prs will handle everything else.

I ran the prs, great unit.

Yeah....I am thinking of all the suggestions that have come across...I am liking the PRS80 and then trying to make some adjustments to tweeter angles and removing the factory 'grilles' that cover the morels. I notice when I remove them the tweets are a bit more present. Hide them with acoustically transparent cloth rather than the plastic grills with perforations. Active might have to wait a little longer...but like I said...I am really nit picking the thing now anyway shooting for as high of an SQ level as I can get. I know it sounds great a lot of the time cause it gets me giggling with joy when I hear it sounding good...just have to take care of the stragglers. Thanks for all of your time and suggestions and if you think of more....please do lay it on me. I can tell you have good chops in the car. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Not all acoustical issues inside cars can be solved....and I don't know of any other settings\treatments I can do. I cannot relocate drivers, it is not practical and I see no other locations available. If you have any ideas as to how I could do that, please let me know. The best I might be able to do is to get different angles at current positions...but it will take a bit to get to that. What measures do you think I should take to eliminate shrill at high volumes? I agree, it seems excessive to need that much cut at 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K...but while using a Sine generator...I can tell that is where it hurts....so I apply 4-7 DB cuts at those points...not really excessive as I can see it, but what else would cause the shrill with music that is saturating the entire bandwidth like slammed level CD's. Older ones with better dynamic headroom...they sound great. Don't get the idea that it sounds horrible in my car....it seems to need a little additional help getting louder. If there are additional treatments I can do...I would be willing to try. In the Sentra...the speakers do have a slight angled tilt to the listening positions....but the tweets could be better...I will try to adjust those first. Overall, I have dealt with worse interiors than the Sentra...it sounds pretty dead for the most part.

I've seen some really crazy things done to try to correct the inherent terrible acoustic environment of a car. As you mentioned, slight adjustment of angle of the tweeters can be dramatic, adjusting crossover points can help (having a channel per driver and processing power is key here).

Another thing worth experimenting with is to reverse polarity on tweeters. Either side and both. I've seen more than one person reporting success taming some bad nodes with this method. When you're dealing with wavelengths of only a few inches and drivers separated by a couple feet phase becomes very problematic so running one or both tweeters out of phase may help.

You might check out the DIYMA forum. I don't know if they do any gatherings in SOCAL but we have a New England meetup occasionally and I learned a lot and heard some amazing sound stages by meeting up with guys who have put hours of testing and tweaking into the quest for perfection.

At the end of the day, you may well have just hit the wall with how good you'll be able to get things and need to rely on EQ, but I assure you the kind of stuff that's high quality and will give you the power that it seems like you're after isn't tune on the go type stuff.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Yeah....I am thinking of all the suggestions that have come across...I am liking the PRS80 and then trying to make some adjustments to tweeter angles and removing the factory 'grilles' that cover the morels. I notice when I remove them the tweets are a bit more present. Hide them with acoustically transparent cloth rather than the plastic grills with perforations. Active might have to wait a little longer...but like I said...I am really nit picking the thing now anyway shooting for as high of an SQ level as I can get. I know it sounds great a lot of the time cause it gets me giggling with joy when I hear it sounding good...just have to take care of the stragglers. Thanks for all of your time and suggestions and if you think of more....please do lay it on me. I can tell you have good chops in the car. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

80PRS is very nice, DEX-P99RS will make you poop in your pants. That's a really impressive processor.

 

[Elvenking]

I've seen some really crazy things done to try to correct the inherent terrible acoustic environment of a car. As you mentioned, slight adjustment of angle of the tweeters can be dramatic, adjusting crossover points can help (having a channel per driver and processing power is key here).
Another thing worth experimenting with is to reverse polarity on tweeters. Either side and both. I've seen more than one person reporting success taming some bad nodes with this method. When you're dealing with wavelengths of only a few inches and drivers separated by a couple feet phase becomes very problematic so running one or both tweeters out of phase may help.

You might check out the DIYMA forum. I don't know if they do any gatherings in SOCAL but we have a New England meetup occasionally and I learned a lot and heard some amazing sound stages by meeting up with guys who have put hours of testing and tweaking into the quest for perfection.

At the end of the day, you may well have just hit the wall with how good you'll be able to get things and need to rely on EQ, but I assure you the kind of stuff that's high quality and will give you the power that it seems like you're after isn't tune on the go type stuff.

Yes...I see what you mean about phasing of the tweets and wavelength. Makes a lot of sense. I can try lots with the tweets since they are easiest to relocate and angle. Good thoughts at least until I get that driver-per-channel setup.

Yeah...I can already see me breaking down and swapping out the head unit....I was wondering from the get go where I was going to go with the headunit. This Will be my third switch-out within the last month or so. LOL. It's worth it to me though and I can reclaim some money from the Alpine to go towards the 80PRS I am sure.

Ceratinly I wouldn't mind schmoozing with some other audioheads as well....must be a meetup here in San Diego somewhere. I'll look.

Also, I'll look at the DEX-P99RS too. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Elvenking]

As far as the PRS80 goes....does anyone think I can do better than this cost-wise??/

New Pioneer DEH 80PRS Single DIN USB MP3 iPod Car Stereo Receiver w Bluetooth 884938151986 | eBay

 

[Elvenking]

80PRS is very nice, DEX-P99RS will make you poop in your pants. That's a really impressive processor.

Ahhh yes....at $1,199.00 that thing better do it all by itself. LOL. All kidding aside....very nice deck but far outside my effective value range. I'll own that one in my dreams and get the PRS80 in real life. But yes...I did poop my pants.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Ahhh yes....at $1,199.00 that thing better do it all by itself. LOL. All kidding aside....very nice deck but far outside my effective value range. I'll own that one in my dreams and get the PRS80 in real life. But yes...I did poop my pants.

Well out of the toy budget of most folks, but I've seen them in action and they are top notch quality and pack a ton of processing power. Assuming somebody is ready to shell out 400$ on a HU and another 500+ in outboard processors it's not that far out of line price wise since it realistically replaces that much stuff that some folks would buy and greatly simplifies the signal chain. Less things in the chain = less potential for weak links.

The 80PRS is a very solid value and if you shop around online can be had for a reasonable price. Really I don't know of anything with more processing power than the 80 until you get into the 99, so it's about as good as you'll get without really breaking the bank.

If I buy a HU and use it for a couple months and sell it for a 60-80$ loss I chalk it up to the cost of "renting" or auditioning it. Can't be helped, and if you're buying good quality gear, shopping wisely, and don't beat things up you can usually get a fair resale value on equipment.

 

[Elvenking]

Well out of the toy budget of most folks, but I've seen them in action and they are top notch quality and pack a ton of processing power. Assuming somebody is ready to shell out 400$ on a HU and another 500+ in outboard processors it's not that far out of line price wise since it realistically replaces that much stuff that some folks would buy and greatly simplifies the signal chain. Less things in the chain = less potential for weak links.
The 80PRS is a very solid value and if you shop around online can be had for a reasonable price. Really I don't know of anything with more processing power than the 80 until you get into the 99, so it's about as good as you'll get without really breaking the bank.

If I buy a HU and use it for a couple months and sell it for a 60-80$ loss I chalk it up to the cost of "renting" or auditioning it. Can't be helped, and if you're buying good quality gear, shopping wisely, and don't beat things up you can usually get a fair resale value on equipment.

Yeah...if I had the money I could easily justify the purchase....I will stick with the 80PRS for now. I see equipment exchange as 'rental' just like you do as well. Losing a little on the experience is all good. Thank for taking the time to give me some good tips!