short line array...comments

[thadman 10+ year member]

I wonder how those B&Ws measures...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

Im sure they sound phenomenal (which is one of the many reasons why they can demand such a high price tag), but if they incur a higher level (higher compared to minute distortion levels produced by esls and line arrays...) of distortion it may explain why you dont enjoy ESLs or line arrays. Distortion isnt necessarily a bad thing and is quite preferable in some situations. You may be used to hearing a certain level of distortion in speakers...and if its missing you might classify the new sound as *unnatural* or missing something. ...just a theory

This is one of the many reasons I want objective impressions of loudspeakers and not subjective ones. Words and phrases convey different opinions, emotions, and ideas to different people... As humans we are also subject to psychoacoustics and may hear what...we want to hear. Objective isnt like that, its a standard that can only be interpreted one way and may be able to explain the discrepancies we find in subjective comparisons

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

I wonder how those B&Ws measures...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif
Im sure they sound phenomenal (which is one of the many reasons why they can demand such a high price tag), but if they incur a higher level (higher compared to minute distortion levels produced by esls and line arrays...) of distortion it may explain why you dont enjoy ESLs or line arrays. Distortion isnt necessarily a bad thing and is quite preferable in some situations. You may be used to hearing a certain level of distortion in speakers...and if its missing you might classify the new sound as *unnatural* or missing something. ...just a theory

This is one of the many reasons I want objective impressions of loudspeakers and not subjective ones. Words and phrases convey different opinions, emotions, and ideas to different people... As humans we are also subject to psychoacoustics and may hear what...we want to hear. Objective isnt like that, its a standard that can only be interpreted one way and may be able to explain the discrepancies we find in subjective comparisons

Sound inherently IS subjective. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

nG

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

I want objective impressions of loudspeakers and not subjective ones.

You do realize thats like seeking the holy grail, don't you...

Just go listen to the **** things, form your own fricking opinion, and be done with it.

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Here is more data for you to digest. Magnetar on diyaudio is a big horn speaker

freakazoid. Normal speakers never satisfied him. Recently, he got curious about

line arrays and built a budget array using a $3 midrange and Dayton Neo

$4 tweeter;

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=7029016.21302&pid=1903

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-030

Scott is the forum pessimist and tries to paint a bleak picture.

Magnetar said;

Well let me build some baffles and see what really happens before you make me change my mind!

 

What inspired me to do this line array thing was hearing a 96 driver line using 30 cent one by three inch TV speakers at fellows house a couple of weeks ago.

 

The tiny drivers were in 3' wide sealed baffles with no tweeters and some little 6.5" isobaric bass drivers built into sub enclosures(biamped) in the back of the baffles for below 120 cycles. Other than the size (bigger then my horn systems at over 8 feet tall and 3 feet wide and aaround a fooot and a half deep!) and lack of high frequency extension I was pretty impressed with the sound. Mostly In the way the lines drove the room and the huge sweet spot. The upper bass and mids were very coherent and his line arrays projected a nice meaty, 3D image that was quite enveloping and full size. They also would play at serious levels with little strain like a good horn.

 

He used no eq at with this and up to 6k or so, I feel this 96 driver system is superior to my Acoustat Spectra 3 electrostats. His line was also easier to drive, no beaming, and walked all over the Acoustats in dynamics and pure FUN - The Acoustat is a pretty good sounding panel speaker with it's segmented panels.

 

So what I'm hoping to do is get these $ 3.00 drivers to sound as good as his 30 cent drivers with some response above 10K and a smaller footprint.

*****

Project done;

They are nearing completion and sound wonderful.

 

I ended up using 30 tweeters, 12 midrange and 6 ten inch pro bass drivers per channel in a triamped open baffle. The bass is measuring in at a whopping 108 DB/W/M and is very tight and tuneful...

 

What is amazing is it's the first time my horn loaded sub bass actually has seen it's match in the midbass.

 

This was a very successful and rewarding project for me.

pic;

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=1081579&stamp=1166103264

Thread;

LOL @ 30 cent drivers

LOL @ $3 - $4 drivers

Owning his big horn system..

Imagine what happens when you build a quality array with better drivers. /hehe

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89188&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

Now you know why I have 288 NSB's in storage, 49 cent midwoofers. This is good stuff in an array,

you can beat down very high end store speakers for minimal costs and laugh all the way to the bank.

Those fosters may be a candidate for lacquer cone treatment to improve SQ and lower cone mass, harr................

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

You do realize thats like seeking the holy grail, don't you...
Just go listen to the **** things, form your own fricking opinion, and be done with it.

Agreed.... No more Propaganda, no more hype.... Get what you like.... And be done with it..... I don't care what you get. Just don't piss in my bucket and tell me it's raining when I give you my opinion when you asked for it....

 

[desertheat 10+ year member]

Good info //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Hey that McIntosh new line uses aura 2" titanium drivers... haha nice!

I can get the 3" paper drivers from aura for pretty cheap. I have been dreaming up an array useing approx 40 drivers per side... Man sounds fun haha. Still trying to decide HF for the array and what drivers... DIY is why I am into car audio, makes it fun and more enjoyable and sometimes your results end up amazing !

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=7899008.4747&pid=1757

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Hey that McIntosh new line uses aura 2" titanium drivers... haha nice!

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=20&cat=Loudspeaker+Systems&prodid=1114&product=XRT2K

* Total of 110 drivers in each speaker

The comedy -> 89dB .... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Their woofers play up to 250hz and covered by the mid/tweeter array. Not

ideal. They probably did this to keep the design to one tower vs. the better method, two towers per channel.

2" full range array

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/Kuze3201/Kuze3201.html

 

[desertheat 10+ year member]

Hahaha that sucks man... 89db with 110 drivers..? *LOL* OMG.. I would have guessed 106db+++!

Very cool. I dig the responce of those aura 3" drivers.. Mabey do just a super tweet up way high around 10-12K?? Somthing like the crossoverpoint on a hammerdynamics 2way? Just a thougt I am having //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Heck I may even be able to skip the tweet and go for a full range setup with those.. Have heard a few full range setups that really changed my perspective on audio and what I like and do not like...

Also looking at these...

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/aurasound/ns4-255-4d.pdf

Not near the nice responce of the 3" but the fs is around 75hz lower. Could help bring the crossover point allot higher... Still learning allot but I have some ideas of what I want out of my monoliths...

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/aurasound/NS3-193-8A.pdf

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

What is your two tower line array budget ?

What is the important variables? high quality high frequency SQ? SPL? bass > treble performance? etc.

I can get the 3" paper drivers from aura for pretty cheap.

What price can you snag them for?

Mad pricing is;

Aurasound NS3-194-8E 3" full range paper cone - $8.50 - $10.50

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=7899008.4747&pid=1757

Lets assume a 6' tall array for an 8' tall room.

Lets say 20 3" drivers per tower. Mad pricing = $170 per tower.

Also looking at these...

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/aurasound/ns4-255-4d.pdf

Mad pricing = $25 each.

Lets say 16 4" drivers per tower. Mad pricing = $400 per tower.

These are $19.50

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/aurasound/NS3-193-8A.pdf

Lets say 20 3" drivers per tower. Mad pricing = $390 per tower.

Using Madisound pricing, two midwoofer towers can cost $340 - $800

with no tweeter. Sound quality won't be the best without a tweeter array

or a very high performance single tweeter.

If you want high fidelity, then look at a tweeter array, the Dayton PT2 tweeter, eight or more per tower

can do a great job, even better job wired for lower impedance. That cost about $400 for two towers

for 16 tweeters total. 20 - 24 tweeters is ideal for a 8' tall home. Find whatever midrange that will get

the bass response you seek. Let the PT2 operate in the 1.7khz - $3khz range and use the appropriate

mid that has less cone break up gremlins at the target crossover frequency. Model a ported box to extract

more bass to see if that is an option.

I can't think of any single tweeter in the lower price range that will compete

with a midwoofer array. You can use compression drivers and horns and some

other exotic tweeters, but how much do they cost vs. the PT2 array?

If you did make a PT2 array, then there is no reason to limit your midwoofer

to 3" or 4", you can go bigger in size. Many fancy drivers > 6" may not work

well due to cone breakup issues in the 2khz - 3khz region. If you use a LR8

crossover, you can cheat the PT2 to work in the

out the nasty midwoofer gremlins that may manifest with drivers > 6" in size.

It depends on the midwoofer you choose.

Line arrays are actually easy to create if you have money. Go active and pick

the drivers to make a tweeter line and midwoofer line and no hybrid idea

so you can get the best performance. Get four quality amp channels that drive low impedance,

viola'.. yer done.

 

[desertheat 10+ year member]

This is pretty much my vision.... The tweet I am still in the air on... possibly looking at a raven r1... Anyways bi-amp was already planed for. My idea is to keep the mids playing up to around 10-12Khz at least so the tweet would be very top end only... just my idea anyways... And yeah, I know these things get pricey but your talking to a guy that spent $23K in modifications to a $16K car hahaha! You only live once right! And on aura prices... yeah.. very very cheap *LOL*! Think I am the aura ***** on here.

Feel free to tear into my thought process on this design. I am still learning heavily when it comes to arrays....

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

The line array guideline seen here;

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf

3" speakers with 3" center to center spacing would yield a crossover point of;

13560 / 3 = 4520hz, optimum is to divide that by two = 2260hz

Combing probably begins at 2x 4520 = 9040hz

If you were anal, 2.2khz crossover.

Gremlins probably arn't audible at 4.5khz crossover.

You may start to hear something as you raise that crossover because

those are full range drivers. If you have a variable electronic crossover

like DCX2496 you can do a test hear the audible effects of different crossover

frequencies. Experiment by sweeping the crossover frequency from a low setting,

lets say low pass 2khz and sweep all the way up to 20khz and listen for any sounds

that you think might be compromising the design and note the crossover frequency.

Lets say the sound is cool at 10khz crossover, but starts to sound worse

if you raise it higher, then you need the tweeter. But, what if it sounds good

to you with the high pass setting at 20khz or no high pass ? Then no need for a tweeter.

You have to make a 1 tower prototype of the midwoofer array to audition it and find

out where gremlins manifest if any. Then you can proceed to the next step.

Lets say you prefer a lower low pass setting, lets say 3khz - 5khz, then you

will need a tweeter that will mate well with the SPL potential of the midarray

or you will have to reduce midarray SPL to match the single tweeter as it is

the weakest link.

If you want best SQ, you will need a tweeter array. An array of ribbons or planars

or a big array of those $4 dome tweeters. 40 of the $4 dome tweeters per tower

would be a wiring hell, but you can do some big damage with a big tweeter array

like that. If you make the array more complex, then you should consider going fully

active. If you want to keep is simple with only full range drivers and a single tweeter,

then use passive if you want. But if you have an array of tweeters and mids, fully

active makes it easier to tweak.