short line array...comments

thadman
10+ year member

CarAudio.com Elite
You guys are awesome...

Once again, this is another saga in my research and is a question pertaining to line arrays and mid/tweets involving my ever evolving project The project is an open baffle dipole and I will be crossing to Dayton RS390HFs on the bottom end.

I only have so much many, and have to decide which mids Im going to audition. I can get a pair of W15CYs for $220~, a pair of Audax PR170M0 for $160, and 8 Dayton RS180s for $200

Partsexpress is having a sale (RS180s are $25 each), this would allow me to use 4 RS180s per side or even 8 if I was feeling dangerous. This would allow me to achieve super low distortion and crazy efficiency:D ~100dB with 4 of them.

I'd arrange them in a MMTMM vertical alignment. Would I have issues with the outer mids being farther from the tweeter than the inner mids? The outer mids would be farther from the tweeter than the length of the soundwaves its reproducing by a significant margin. I'd be crossing 1800hz LR8 to avoid the breakup node, which is ~7.4".

Also, with non-linear distortion and linear distortion taking into consideration. Would 4 of these RS180s outperform a Seas Excel W18E or W15CY?

 
An MMTMM isn't really a line array. A real line array in a home would be an array

where the driver line is close to the floor and up close to the ceiling. Anything

else is a compromise, which is ok. Alot of people are making compromised

line arrays because their budget doesn't support the big line array or other

reasons why they can't have a tall tower in the home. I prefer to call these

hybrid arrays as their performance will be different than a real line array, but it

doesn't make the design bad, just different.

I had plans to make a hybrid array, two tower array using four pro planars,

four 8" midranges flanked by three 15' wideband woofers, but after

experimenting with the budget array using 49 cent modded 4" midwoofers

{PE buyout drivers}, and PT2 planars, I realized that the big array even using

cheap drivers, optimized design, has huge performance capabilities and I only

imagined what a real line array could do if you were to use high end drivers. Since

then I changed my mind completely and will only make full line arrays, no hybrids

even if using quality drivers.

You will find many arrays where they use alot of midranges and only one tweeter.

You will find short line arrays where they use 4-6 midwoofers and a small line of

{small center-center spacing} dome tweeter or planar/ribbons. I haven't found

any DIY or commercial line array except my budget array that is wired for low

impedance to gain maximum performance. These folks who have high end line

arrays have not seen the full power of what they can do. lol ..... yet they are completely amazed by them.

The hybrid array in your case would be a minimum requirement of MMMMTMMMM

design. The general rule is that the distortion would be 1/8 of the single driver

distortion at the same SPL level - because you have 8 drivers. My budget array is

16 4" midwoofers and distortion is 1/16 of the single driver. As you see, more

drivers, less distortion = sweet. More drivers also means line array midrange

sensitivity rises. Wire them up for lower impedance, you get another higher

sensitivity boost. This hybrid array has a tweeter bottleneck. The overal

performance of the line array is limited to the performance of the single tweeter.

Because you have to match the tweeter to that big midrange line, you will reduce

gain on the midrange line so it's not overpowering the poor ole' tweeter so

you will never really realize it's full potential, all you get is very low midrange distortion. A better design would be to make the tweeter line equally as uber

as the midrange line so you can push performance to it's limit. It would be like

building a muscle car with an uber 500 horsepower engine, but you are using

a weak transmission and skinny tires. The engine looks impressive when you

show it off, but the car isn't going to perform to it's full abilities.

I'd arrange them in a MMTMM vertical alignment. Would I have issues with the outer mids being farther from the tweeter than the inner mids?

It's a compromised design so you have to accept the gremlins that may manifest

because the top array segment is spaced further apart from the bottom segment.

In the real world, you have no choice unless you move the tweeter to the right

of the baffle and make the midrange line with no break. The speaker will look

fugly and this is where art takes priority over sound theory. I'd choose the compromise and just live with it.

Also, with non-linear distortion and linear distortion taking into consideration. Would 4 of these RS180s outperform a Seas Excel W18E or W15CY?

When you line source drivers, distortion drops alot and it's easy to beat

out single drivers. My 49 cent midwoofers, all 16 of them would beat a single

Seas Excel when you crank it up loud, no contest. The power of the large

quality of drivers just rule.

If you want to make a line array, select the tweeter first as you are limited by

choice. Make a full line of tweeters, then choose 4" - 5" cheap midwoofers

and performance will be huge. SQ will be defined by the tweeters and less by

the midranges.

Here's a Dayton RS/PT2 array that someone started to build last year

based on my recommendations.

pics in numerical order.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/ew/

If you want to order sample drivers to audition, then just buy one driver

and return the ones you don't like. If you want to make a big line array,

you really don't need to sample any midrange drivers -- because -- you will

not be pushing the midrange to it's performance limit in an array as much

as you will in a standalone design. Gremlins manifest when you push the driver

hard and you want to identify which ones take the abuse while sounding clean.

For an array, it's hard to push each driver to it's limit unless you have some monster kilowatt proamps in bridge mode, even so, distortion of the array is

uber low so the midrange candidates can realistically be any cheap driver

especially if you use a LR8 crossover under 2khz crossover point.

If it was me, I'd either make a quality 3 way speaker using one tweeter, one

midrange, one woofer, subwoofer seperate.... OR I'd chose to make a tall line

array using PT2 planars with cheap midwoofers. If you have bigger bucks,

use $100 ribbon tweeters and Dayton RS or higher brand. If you want to use

domes, there is little choice on the market, the Dayton Neo $4 dome is the

one typically chosen, but you need alot of them for a big line.

 
Do you think 8 RS180s per side and 32 Dayton Neo4s per side would sound good? The Neo measured absolutely horrendously (1% distortion

I'd have crazy efficiency:D

102.65dB with 1 watt to each RS180

122dB with 1 watt to each Dayton Neo

I also have the possibility of building an ESL (60" high by 1" wide). Could it keep up with the RS180s if crossed at 1800hz?

Itd only cost me $400 for the RS180s and ~$250 for the Neos (although I bet id get a discount by buying 64 of em hehe) so cost wouldnt be bad at all.

 
Also, how long of a line determines its potentiality as a line array. Im sure its frequency dependent, but how long does the line have to be in comparison with the frequency its reproducing?

 
Do you think 8 RS180s per side and 32 Dayton Neo4s per side would sound good?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

I think you can make it sound good as you have a DCX to fine tune the the sound.

The midrange and tweeter line is pretty good in size. $256 for 64 tweeters.

Call to see if you can get a volume discount. For $400 you can get 16 PT2 planars which would make the install much easier, woodworking and wiring point of view.

[10 - 12 PT2 per tower = better]

The Neo measured absolutely horrendously

The PT2 is also pretty bad if you test it, but in an array, distortion drops alot

compared to the single driver at same SPL. In the real world, it's a moot issue

as you will have low distortion. Only at very high SPL will the issues manifest.

These are SPL levels that high end drivers can't reach. 32 Neo's has the potential

of 1/32 less distortion of the single Neo at same SPL. My budget array has 10

PT2's, 1/10 the distortion. Add the fact that an LR8 crossover is sweeter and will

allow you to push the performance envelope further on either tweeter, Neo or

PT2. I cross the PT2 at 1.7khz whereas everyone else doesn't go below 3khz

using a simpler crossover.

I'd have crazy efficiency:D

102.65dB with 1 watt to each RS180

122dB with 1 watt to each Dayton Neo

What is your wiring scheme?

Neos;

108dB sensitivity for Neo's @ 4 ohm wiring.

111 dB sensitivity @ 2 ohm wiring.

114dB sensitivity @ 1 ohm wiring.

RS180;

96.6dB for 8 ohm wiring.

99.6dB for 4 ohm wiring.

102.6dB for 2 ohm wiring.

I also have the possibility of building an ESL (60" high by 1" wide). Could it keep up with the RS180s if crossed at 1800hz?

You can make it work, you adjust our RS line gain to the level of the ESL line. I'm

pretty sure the ESL is your bottleneck SPL-wise unless you have something

unique that puts out gobs of SPL.

You want dipole but check out a sealed or ported design for the line array.

RS180 line array can dish out incredible midbass if you feed it kilowatts. A ported

RS line tuned to ~45hz can do more punishment. You shouldn't need those 15"

woofers to play the role of midbass if you make a big line array. You can save

money by not needing the woofers and amplifier, redirect all the funds into the

biggest array that fits in the house. You can push the array taller to squeeze

more drivers in there for a no compromised design. If dipole, you might have

some lack of midbass, you'd have to test it out to see.

If you want to refine the line array design for best SQ, a line of 12 RS150's or a

line of 16 RS125's 5" midwoofers would be pretty sweet. The 4" - 5" midwoofer

is probably the best size for a line array but you can make a line array work

very well with the 6", 7", or even 8" midranges. I have plans to use 8" pure

midranges for a future build even though 8" is not SQ - ideal... I'm looking for

more SPL and dynamic impact, an unusual goal, but for the common man,

the 4" - 5" driver would be best.

Word on the street says the RS180 has SQ gremlins at a higher crossover

frequency, IIRC a crossover ~1.7khz, 8th order is needed to filter out the crud,

but this leaves you with little tweaking ability. The RS150 actually would make a

better candidate as if offers more crossover frequency flexibility. Best SQ might

be achieved by using the RS125 but you need more of them to keep the line

array tall.

The John J. line array is one of the biggest DIY arrays with 12 PT2 'type' planars

and 12 6" midwoofers. By have extra drivers, you boost performance.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/5.JPG

If you make a good line array, you won't need any other loudspeaker ... ever ...

Take time and be patient, think about it.

 
How long does the tweeter array have to be for it to display line array behavior? Are there varying degrees of line array behavior (SPL loss for a given distance) that rises with frequency like directivity in comparison with diaphragm size or is it simply black and white? or no...

Can I just have a line of tweeters that will cover the distance I will be listening (say 36"-60") vs the entire line? Because isnt the requirement for the length of the line lower for higher frequencies?

 
I'm new to ca.com
I've noticed that many people complain when posts are long.

Are people here handicapped at reading ?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
It's not that... just get to the point. Try compressing what you want to say.

 
I could optimize the ESL design by making the stators extremely close together, this makes sensitivity go through the roof because it has to do with a square of the distance, but severely reduces displacement (I wont need it anyway though if Im reproducing 1000-1500hz and have an extremely large diaphragm)

Does this sound like an option...or is this still a bad idea?

 
Im a fan of thylantyr's extended posts and find no issues with them. They are extremely informative, detailed, and coherent. The subject matter in many of the threads are already quite complex, so a complex and relevant post is often welcome:D

 
How long does the tweeter array have to be for it to display line array behavior? Are there varying degrees of line array behavior (SPL loss for a given distance) that rises with frequency like directivity in comparison with diaphragm size or is it simply black and white? or no...
Can I just have a line of tweeters that will cover the distance I will be listening (say 36"-60") vs the entire line? Because isnt the requirement for the length of the line lower for higher frequencies?
Have you read this doc yet?

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf

A small tweeter line will not be as uber as the big tweeter line. If you can't

afford to make the big line array, I probably wouldn't bother with the hybrid

design because later you will have second thoughts and wonder ...hmmm maybe I shoulda made the big one .. lol

Most people that build the big array will have a listening distance at least 12

feet from the array and even beyond this, it's pretty crazy SPL wise. You have

to experience the big array to realize the small one just isn't the same.

If I were to make a hybrid array, I would use a quality compression driver with

small horn in the center of the array flanked by the midwoofers. This gives

the horn a chance to compete with the SPL potential of the midwoofers. People

have successfully made a hybrid array with a center ribbon or dome tweeter but

you just need to know that it's the bottleneck of the design.

The SQ of my budget array is defined by the long line of PT2 tweeters, the midranges really don't play a big role. People that build arrays don't realize they

are losing SQ when they compromise the tweeter line design. My budget array

has one fuse per tweeter. I can disconnect each tweeter from the line to see

how it sounds with just a single tweeter or two, it's just not as uber in SQ

and performance.

 
I could optimize the ESL design by making the stators extremely close together, this makes sensitivity go through the roof because it has to do with a square of the distance, but severely reduces displacement (I wont need it anyway though if Im reproducing 1000-1500hz and have an extremely large diaphragm)
Does this sound like an option...or is this still a bad idea?
Make a prototype, then see if it fits in your speaker design.

 
With the DCX using LR8 @ ~2khz crossover point, you can make almost any

midrange work, the ones with Fs around 100hz or less is what I would look at.

If you build the tallest array by cramming alot of midranges, then you don't

really need the midrange to be a high end driver as distortion will be low

using el cheapo driver.

/random

$7.4ea.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-373

$8.9 ea.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-050

$13 each.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-305

$17 ea. Pretty.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-434

$17 ea.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-603

$17.50

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4849086.19407&pid=1755

$7.60 , 3" driver.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4849086.19407&pid=905

$8.5 in bulk order, 3" driver. Phase plug.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4849086.19407&pid=1757

$3 ea. 5" Foster driver, high Qts, suitable for dipole, paper cone. Fs 80hz.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4849086.19407&pid=1902

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4849086.19407&pid=1903

Buy two Fosters for $6. Since it's a paper cone, do an experiment with

lacquer cone treatment. Cost ~ $5 to cone treat. Listen to the unmodded vs.

modded driver to see which has smoother sounding midrange playing full range.

Then hook up the DCX bandpass and listen.

Apex Jr. Cerwin Vega 16 ohm mids - $5

http://www.apexjr.com/speakerstuff.html

 
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