short line array...comments

Ok...I did some research on my own and I've got a few problems now.

The low frequency cutoff of my array (if I used 12 RS180s, ~85.5" driver to driver) would be quite high.

F=frequency in khz

d=distance in meters

h=height in meters

d= 3 meters sounds like a practical listening distance

h= 85.5" or 2.172 meters

f=d/1.5h^2

f=3/1.5(2.172^2, ~4.72)

f=3/1.5(4.72)

f=3/7.08

f=.424khz or 424hz

@ 3 meters my cutoff frequency is 424hz, @ 5 meters my cutoff frequency is 706hz

How do I overcome this problem? Im going to be listening in the far field at lower frequencies...and the near field at the higher frequencies and theres no way I can overcome the height issue, my room is only so high lol.

Also for nearfield listening F/2 is the CTC spacing requirement (ctc spacing of RS180s would be 7.125" and would require a 14.25"(940hz) crossover)

Thats an extremely low crossover requirement...

The tweeter line would have to be this long

h= square root of (d/1.5f)

h= SR(3/1.5x.94)

h= SR(3/1.41)

h= SR(2.128)

h=1.459 meters, ~57inches

What tweeter can satisfy these requirements?

The Dayton RS125 cant go much higher...and I'd only be able to use 16 of them in a line (~79") for practical wiring purposes

4.9375"(2)=9.875" or 1357hz crossover point

 
That line array document by Jim Griffin also says that if you place your array in

a room, you will get under 100hz performance provided that your midwoofers

are up to the task.

Some key things to remember. Science is good. But you can use your common

sense card in your back pocket and figure things out and you can also skew any

design and cheat a little bit. That is the fun of DIY - to make your creation with

a touch of art.

Do you really think 24 7" Dayton RS midwoofers in a sealed box won't give you

low frequency performance? Of course it will. Not only that, power handling is

huge, 720w rms per line array. You can drive that line with a 10kw proamp

and wake up the dead with so much bass.

Take another look at my NSB/PT2 array I built for my friend a while back.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/1.JPG

He hasn't taken possession due to lack of funds so it's mine at the moment and

I have alot of hours logged messing with it. Those NSB drivers are 4" Pioneer

buyouts from partsexpress that cost 49 cents each. 5w rms, xmax 1 mm.

It's a ported design tuned to 100hz. Wired for 2 ohms per midwoofer tower.

One PLX3402 in bridged mode drives that 16 midwoofer line. I measured over

126dB[c] at the listening position of just upper midbass. I have stuff falling off

the TV if I crank up the tunes. Recently a fancy wine glass fell off the shelf in

the kitchen. If I stand in the corner of the room, I can feel the bass pounding

in my chest. This is spectacular performance from 49 cent drivers in a ported box.

Performance is not as aggressive in a sealed box. Midbass performance would

complete lack if it was open baffle.

Imagine what you can do with quality drivers like Dayton RS in a sealed box

or imagine how crazy it can be in a ported box tuned low. In the DIY world,

I haven't seen any ported midwoofer line arrays except mine. There is one

commerical product - Dali-Megaline - that ports 1/2 of their midwoofer line.

Even Wilson Audio normal loudspeaker, Alexandria [$100k] has ported midwoofers in spite that they use two more woofers. It's not common to see

ported midwoofers as people frown upon that, but you can easily make a test

box to see what you like. Buy some cheap particle board and make a ported test box, reduce scale of your line array, lets say 1/4 scale. Listen to it ported. Plug the port then listen to it's sealed box performance, then take the box apart {destroy it] and run open baffle. One test box can test all three configurations to see what

you like.

The crossover frequency can be cheated and crossed higher. I think the

Dayton RS 6" or 5" would be better suited for the line array job. You can

take the crossover up to 2khz no problem. I bought 8" midranges for a future

line array build, I will probably use 1.8khz crossover point as I will cheat.

If you use the DCX, the job is much easier to execute.

Line array tweeter choices are limited.

If you want to use planars, PT2 is the best bang for buck wired for low impedance.

HiVi planars costing more won't give you anymore reward, it's the same thing really in a different guise.

BG Neo8 is overrated, $62 each. There are some DIY and commercial line arrays using them. Of all BG drivers,

the Neo3 looks better but it's still expensive. Partsexpress $4 neo is probably the only dome out there suited for

this job. Then, you venture in the $100 ribbon territory, then $300 ribbon, then $700 planar.

There are some esoteric ideas floating in cyber where you use a RD ribbon like this;

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-700

then mate this to a super tweeter line as the RD performs more like a midrange not tweeter.

Newform ribbons look nice, expensive too but all these long line ribbons or planars will lack

in SPL and have low sensitivity. If you use the smaller ribbon/planar it gives you the wiring

option for low impedance to raise sensitivity and you can get more SPL.

 
I am going with an open baffle design to remove bass nulls...and its an all around easier design to build (wood is cheaper too). I doubt that even if I did run them open baffle, I'd have problems running them low...I never mentioned that.

The issue at hand is not that it lacks displacement...which it certainly doesnt. It is that the line is going to transition polar response in the midrange and make it impossible for me to listen at different distances. Below the transition frequency, the sound will be dominated by reflections and decrease at a rate of -6dB for every doubling of distance vs above the area the sound will be dominated by the cylindrical wavefront and decrease at a rate of -3dB for every doubling of distance. This cannot be fixed with equalization...

I dont understand your point about cheating...if I cheat I get comb filtering and/or poor performance. Its black and white...nothing subjective. I cant *bend* science...lol.

Why should I worry myself about wiring for low impendances? It seems pointless and I'd risk ruining my amplifier. As long as I deliver the power necessary to the line array...then Its going to reach the same SPL no matter the wiring configuration.

 
Line arrays are not for everyone. I think their strong points are;

1. Potential for a big sound stage.

--> you can implement power tapering to reduce the image size but max SPL

is less and distortion can be higher than a non power taper setup.

2. Potential for very low distortion.

3. Potential for very high SPL.

4. Potential to be expensive as you need many drivers.

5. Potential to be heavy and take up alot of space in the room.

You should only seek a line array design if a standard design is boring. If

you find satisfaction with a standard design then it might be a better choice.

Model performance in an open baffle design, ideally prototype it first using

a hunk of cheap wood. Verify.

If the line array is for a typical room in a house, lets say 5-20 feet listening

distance, then there is little to be worried about other than having the normal

room treatments on the walls and carpet/rug on the floor. Maybe add some heavy drapes behind you.

You are analyzing way too much. This is simple stuff. A stack of drivers near

the floor up to the ceiling, following the common rules and even cheating the rules, plus a fully active setup with DCX,

anyone can make it work great.

The hard part is opening up your wallet and taking money out. The next hard part is choosing midwoofers and tweeters,

selecting OB, sealed or ported enclosures, then you figure out how much SPL you want by wiring the

array for higher SPL {lower impedance} or normal SPL {normal impedance},

choosing amplification, and fine tuning with your DCX. The fact that you will use

a fully active rig with DCX gives you so much flexibility to make this work well,

unlike a passive crossover design where you will use one amplifier to drive the array. There is more obstacles in your path using that method.

I dont understand your point about cheating...if I cheat I get comb filtering and/or poor performance. Its black and white...nothing subjective. I cant *bend* science...lol.

The line array math gives you a guideline to follow, it's not written in stone

as it must be that way. If your crossover is theoretically suppose to be 1khz,

setting it to 2khz doesn't guarantee bad sound. In fact, you might think it sounds better as you balance the lesser of the evils.

That's why you have an adjustable crossover, you sweep the vast frequency range to understand the audible effects. For instance, if I turn off

my tweeter array and just listen to my midwoofer array and sweep a crossover

frequency of 1khz all the way up to fullrange, it's not like the sound is horrible.

Most people would probably like the sound full range over 1khz because they

don't know any better. I can tolerate a high crossover from the midwoofer line

no problem. The real issue is the tweeter line.

tweeter line

Your tweeter line will define the SQ. You will perceive better SQ if you concentrate

the bulk of your money into getting a good tweeter line built and use cheaper

midwoofers.

The way I adjust my array is;

1. I turn off the midwoofer line.

2. I turn on the tweeter line. I sweep the crossover frequency from a low

starting point and sweep up while listening to my favorite music. Do this at

medium SPL so you don't damage your tweeters if you have a low crossover point. You will hear things as you sweep and

eventually you will favor a certain crossover point that sounds sweet. For sake of argument, lets say you like

the sound of your tweeter line at 1.2khz LR8 at low SPL, but at medium SPL the tweeters sound nasty and

you need to raise this closer to 1.7khz. For high SPL you may need 2.5khz. I make a mental note of these

three crossover frequencies; 1.2khz - low spl, 1.7khz medium to high spl - 2.5khz very high spl ..

3. Next, listen to the midwoofer line only and determine how your midwoofer

line sounds in the 1.2khz - 2.5khz range. If nothing bad is heard, then you

are good to go.

4. Listen to the midwoofer and tweeter line from 1.2khz - 2.5khz and you will see

imaging improve at the lower crossover point, but if it's too low and SPL is raised,

the sound degrades. For me, I do 90% of my listening at 1.7khz LR8, at extreme

SPL I will take it to 2khz, maybe 2.5khz to protect the tweeters and lower tweeter distortion.

For very low leveling listening [backround music], 1.2khz works fine, but so does 1.7khz and

2.5khz.

DCX has the ability to store settings. A huge bonus. Make different settings and

store them in memory. Recall your settings from memory on the fly.

Basically, I cheat. I cheat the theoretical crossover point because gremlins

that may manifest aren't audible, therefore no need to worry about it. I cheat

by choosing different crossover frequencies for my listening mood, SPL level I listen at and even the song

I listen to may sound better with a different setting to compensate for recording issues. DCX = ultimate cheater processor for $250.

Why should I worry myself about wiring for low impendances? It seems pointless and I'd risk ruining my amplifier. As long as I deliver the power necessary to the line array...then Its going to reach the same SPL no matter the wiring configuration.

Low impedance wiring can raise sensitivity. You get higher SPL for the given

watt until you reach the drivers limits. I have four PLX3402's in bridge mode

wired like so;

PLX #1 - tweeter array, left side, 0.8 ohms.

PLX #2 - tweeter array, right side, 0.8 ohms.

PLX #3 - midwoofer array, left side, 2 ohms.

PLX #4 - midwoofer array, right side, 2 ohms.

3400w per ampliifer rated.

If I flick a switch on the back panel.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/robarray/Control_Panel-2.JPG

I can select a higher impedance to make it more amplifier friendly.

0.8 ohm tweeters are now 3.2 ohm. 2 ohm midwoofers are now 8 ohm.

I lose 6dB sensitivity in higher impedance mode and even though I drive

the array with four 3400w amplifiers, I do notice the lack of SPL. The reason

I notice the lack of SPL is because the amplifiers have reached their clipping

headroom first before the line array hit it's performance peak. Unless

you have an amplifier with unlimted headroom and power, then you don't

need low impedance wiring. Low impedance wiring is a neat trick to boost

performance and nobody, not even commercial line arrays use this method because the audio industry doesn't do fully active systems with 10kw of headroom. lol ...I'm just telling you the best kept secret in line array design.. shhhhhhhh...

If your amplifiers can't handling low impedance, then you have no choice

and can't wire it up this way. My design has a switch to select low and high

impedance to make the line array user friendly. I had a four channel

chipamp running this array in high impedance mode. LM4780 based system.

It works fine, you get sound, it's going to satisfy everyone, but it's not going

to push the line array to it's peak performance like the proamps do.

If you plan your line array wisely, you can make a killer system if you

think ahead. Implement an impedance switch so you can use low powered amplifiers, later if you want to exploit more potential, get some monster amps,

flick the switch and you are good to go.

Good amplifiers can drive low impedance tweeters with ease because tweeters

won't be a difficult load. PLX is rated for 4 ohms in bridge mode, no less. It runs

the 0.8 ohm tweeter load. My Adcom 555 was driving 0.8 ohm per channel,

it's not rated for less than 4 ohms per channel. At very high SPL for a while

cranking metal music, it did go into thermal mode as there is no fans to cool off

the heatsinks. I run the midranges at 2 ohms, I think the amplifiers might have

some issues at under 2 ohms in bridged mode. Woofers; use manufacturer

recommendation and don't cheat by driving lower than recommended. Chipamp

systems; they are not robust enough in design to allow impedance cheating.

 
Mother bird is at it again.... I leave for a couple of days and all this line array crap comes right back up..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 
Mother bird is at it again.... I leave for a couple of days and all this line array crap comes right back up..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif
Can we help make your vacation longer? I will pitch in a few dollars //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif :laugh: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

You Know You Like

 

 

 

 

line array speakers [tm]

 
I'd really like all the opinions I can get on line arrays...so my learned understanding of them isnt from one biased source.

So please, I'd love to hear your opinion of them:D

 
Well.... My opinion is simple......

If shit smells bad outside of a bag, putting lots of it together in a big bag doesn't make it smell any better.

Basically, for me an effective line array design would not be practical because I would have to have higher end drivers in it. Which means LOTS of money. The benefits to me aren't worth it. Because, really, if you want volume 12" and a horn is the way to go. If you want clarity, a conventional speaker system is the way to go. If you want both, check out Meyer UPA or UPJ Ultra Series Power stuff....

Unless you really want to blow some cash then the Dali Megaline stuff would be great.

The "Line Array" as people call it really isn't a line array anyway, it's a line source aka column speaker. I know I know, thy is going to jump up and down on his key board and post 20 articles that say it isn't. But to me it is and most people who were schooled in the pro-audio world would agree, they use pretty much the same idea, small drivers to develop a coupled sound to create a tight patterned control so that a series small drivers can sound like big ones. If you are having issues with your current system not getting loud enough the well maybe you should look into a horn loaded top end with a large mid end which will extend to match the horn.

But, I personally don't see the benefit of using a Line Array in a home setting....

 
I'd really like all the opinions I can get on line arrays...so my learned understanding of them isnt from one biased source.
So please, I'd love to hear your opinion of them:D
I started following the DIY home audio line array camp many years ago when

Jim G. make the Linus I array and documentation for that array. This project

probably started the big DIY line array movement and ever since it has gained

popularity. Everyday I scan all the forums looking for data. I've noticed alot

of people building what I call the hybrid arrays, not the full blown line arrays.

Even so, those have positive reviews. In a way, the hybrid array is giving a

false impression on what a true array can do as people that don't make the

real thing are missing the boat.

A few years ago I started to collect testimonials from around the internet as

people started to audition the good DIY line arrays. I found some commercial

line array testimonials also. I wanted to get an idea on how people responded

to those designs vs. conventional design. I compiled a list here dated September

2004.

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=199046&highlight=line+array+testimonials

Rick Craig with or without Jim's aid, developed many line array designs, I have

alot of line array pics offline that I collected over the years.

http://www.selahaudio.com/

The bottom line was. There are too many positive testimonials from DIY

and some commercial line arrays that validate the concept of using them in

a home. Due to human nature, you can't satisfy 100% of the crowd, but

the positive bias towards line array drowned the negative.

There are some commercial designs not well executed, but you will find

some that are well done but very expensive.

Unless you build a true line array and maximize it's performance 100%,

there is no way someone can really understand how they work, they need

to experience them.

 
Well.... My opinion is simple......

 

If shit smells bad outside of a bag, putting lots of it together in a big bag doesn't make it smell any better.

Before I built the budget array, I did some preliminary tests using eight RT2

planars on the test bench. Back then, these drivers were hyped up on Madisound

forum as they were discounted alot. I did some preliminary tests. For $25, those

RT2 were ok in sound standalone. I much preferred to invest more money into a

quality dome tweeter. But eight planars wired for 1 ohm revealed a different

performance behavior that was interesting and it can't be ignored. How can an

ok driver make the sound better just because you use more of them and if

you wired them for low impedance, how does performance rise? The answer is

simple as I already posted why in this thread.

Later, another test;

Ten planars, 65" line = $250

One pro planar, 8" line = $700

I compared the array of cheap planars to my single $700 planar. The pro planar

can generate as much SPL as the array of cheap planars in a typical room,

offer a lower profile design, 8" vs. 65", but the sound stage is normal, not big

like the line array can do.

Basically, for me an effective line array design would not be practical because I would have to have higher end drivers in it. Which means LOTS of money. The benefits to me aren't worth it.

The good commercial line arrays cost $40k on up. For $3k in driver cost, I can beat the $40k array DIY-style.

$3k is alot of money, but what two speakers will you find in the store that cost $3k for a pair that will beat

the DIY project ?

Answer: none.

For ~$1500 in driver cost you can make a sweet line array that can beat

$20k loudspeakers found in the store.

Based on my experiments, you don't need high end drivers to make

a great line array. A person should not be dissuaded because they think they

need expensive drivers. My budget array cost $2k total less labor costs. I

compared the performance of it to the local high end store where their best

room was McIntosh electronics with B&W speakers [$16k for a pair.]

My budget array using DCX with PLX proamps kills that system with ease

for a fraction of the cost //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif ** That's why people DIY their speakers,

to get the huge rewards while saving phat dollars.

Because, really, if you want volume 12" and a horn is the way to go.

For home use, horns can generate alot of SPL and SQ can be compromised,

the majority of the time it is. I have used horns for 20 years and even though

I'm an SQL junky, I won't use horns in my house. I want high SQ with horn SPL,

the line array is perfect to accomplish this goal. If you don't need this, then

a line array is overkill.

If you want to make a classic pro audio system for a home using a horn, 10" midrange, 15" midbass, etc., then use this recipe.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm

It will sound good and unique in it's own way, but an entry-level Dayton array will be

superior if you go active with it and give it some power just like that system does.

If you want clarity, a conventional speaker system is the way to go.

Line array can do this too.

If you want both, check out Meyer UPA or UPJ Ultra Series Power stuff....

DIY for-the-win, not commercial products. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif Price????

Unless you really want to blow some cash then the Dali Megaline stuff would be great.

Dali is one of the better affordable line arrays on the market. IIRC, $40k

for a pair. In the home audio world, a $20k array is cheap, bad design. $40k

gets you a proper design, then it can get crazy and you will see >$100k, $200k

systems. There is one system that retails for $600k. I can beat the Megaline for $3k in driver cost

not counting building materials, electronics and labor costs. When it comes to DIY line array,

the savings is huge vs. store bought not to mention you can kill those store bought systems

with minimal effort in design.

The "Line Array" as people call it really isn't a line array anyway, it's a line source aka column speaker.

Why even bring this up? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

But, I personally don't see the benefit of using a Line Array in a home setting....

There are many benefits, resistance is futile //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

http://www.familyrightsassociation.com/educate/borg/talons.gif

Last words. After reading those line array testimonials and doing my own experiments

plus building the budget array, the comments correlate to my findings. The line array

is a valid design for home use but there is no guarantee that it will satisfy everyone.

 
Well this is where we just totally disagree. I DO NOT like Column speakers in my listening enviorment. And you love them. The thing I hate is how everyone jumps on that band wagon with out knowing. Which is the problem with DIYers is most of them don't know what they are doing but think they know more than everyone else.

 
Seriously man.... I just came back for another read at this when I'm not straight out of bed. And I am pretty sure you are the most obnoxious person I have ever met. UNless you are some sort of audio super genius, I seriously doubt that your stuff sounds better than the B&W/Mac rig. Maybe louder, but I have NEVER heard a column speaker that I liked. Also, I understand the whole "Loook what I can do" mentality of DIY, but if DIY was so awesome wouldn't everyone just build their own stuff????? You always talk about the "placebo" effect well don't you think you are undergoing a little mind bending when you say statements like that?

It just makes me sick.... Now people on here will be screaming "Line Array Line Array Line Array" for months now. BOLLOCKS!!

 
Well this is where we just totally disagree. I DO NOT like Column speakers in my listening enviorment. And you love them.

Feel free to hate whatever you want, freedom of speech rules. There is

no real reason to bash people that are interested. DIY loudspeaker; it

has a history of providing satisfaction. Your hate for DIY will not stop people, lol.

Which is the problem with DIYers is most of them don't know what they are doing but think they know more than everyone else.

From my observation in cyber. You have a mix of people who know what they

are doing, many DIY'ers build proven designs, and some don't know what they

are doing but make the DIY attempt to learn. The process of learning is called

process as they mature in knowledge. This is not limited just to audio.

And I am pretty sure you are the most obnoxious person I have ever met.

For the record, we never met. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Reading posts on forums doesn't really

qualify to know someone.

UNless you are some sort of audio super genius, I seriously doubt that your stuff sounds better than the B&W/Mac rig.

If store bought speakers satisfied, then I wouldn't have a DIY loudspeaker hobby,

I'd be listening to my store bought rig ever since I got into audio.

but I have NEVER heard a column speaker that I liked.

Considering that line array speakers for proaudio wouldn't work well in a home

except one system I saw from a new vendor, plus considering that there aren't

many store bought line arrays that are great, and not many available for audition,

it would be interesting to see which line arrays didn't satisfy you. I wonder if

the design is flawed? We already identified a few commercial line arrays that

are flawed in design.

Also, I understand the whole "Loook what I can do" mentality of DIY, but if DIY was so awesome wouldn't everyone just build their own stuff?????

People have diverse reasons to DIY.

DIY is popular.

* How many people in the world DIY and not participate on forums? Alot.

* http://www.diyaudio.com/

[as of today -> 1,096,985 posts

* http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/audio_forum/index.pl

* http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?#175391

* http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=155

* http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=6

* http://www.audioroundtable.com/

* http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

Plus many more forums of people building their own stuff.

 
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