short line array...comments

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Yea.... Well I normally don't comment on this Column speaker stuff, because we just don't see eye to eye on it. Which is fine, I don't like you I'm sure as much as you don't like me. But, the dude wanted my opinion so I gave it. And BTW, I realize I don't know you, and that probably is a good think that I don't. If you would stop being anal about stuff you would realize I meant, I know you on the internet. I don't know you in real life, you might be a fantastic person and really know what you are doing. BUT, I totally and whole heartedly disagree with you on this line array stuff and so it creates a problem.

So, whatever.... Do what you want and what makes you happy. I do!!!!!!!!!!

Just don't brain wash people with 1000000x articles that you found that agree with you. I can find plenty that agree with me. I just don't blow my time being on the internet that much....

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Yea.... Well I normally don't comment on this Column speaker stuff, because we just don't see eye to eye on it. Which is fine, I don't like you I'm sure as much as you don't like me. But, the dude wanted my opinion so I gave it.

I don't have bias towards or against you. I'm just into DIY audio and encourage

people to try things.

repost;

*************************************************************

but I have NEVER heard a column speaker that I liked.

Considering that line array speakers for proaudio wouldn't work well in a home

except one system I saw from a new vendor, plus considering that there aren't

many store bought line arrays that are great, and not many available for audition,

it would be interesting to see which line arrays didn't satisfy you. I wonder if

the design is flawed? We already identified a few commercial line arrays that

are flawed in design.

**************************************************************

.. waiting to find out which line arrays didn't satisfy you...

Just don't brain wash people with 1000000x articles that you found that agree with you.

Audio is subjective, the idea is to collect data to find out if an idea is valid.

What articles? lol ...

I can find plenty that agree with me.

Post data that supports your case, just like I posted data that supports

my case.

I just don't blow my time being on the internet that much....

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

I've had disagreements with others on line arrays, you are not the first one.

But those other folks gave a valid response why they didn't like the sound.

I still haven't heard the reason why you hate line arrays. The only opinion

you gave was just random hate babble. Express your feelings why the sound

was weak? Which systems did you hear?

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

I'd love to understand *specifically* why you dont like line arrays.

Soundstage too big?

Not enough reflected energy?

Im trying to get the most objective perspective, and im glad im getting another opinion on these speakers.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Well first of all I have heard DIY ones before. But they were configured for the most volume they could get out of them. And they did not sound good what so ever. They did not have a balanced sound and had some serious phasing issues. I have heard the Dali's and the McIntosh ones. They both sounded good to very good, but to my ears they do not sound natural. I believe it is the distortion caused by they coupling of the drivers. But, there is always 400Hz and 2.5KHz resonances that I seriously find rather annoying. I don't find them to be smooth or natural at all. And the ones that use Ribbon or Planar technology are even worse. When I listen to a system I want to be fooled. I want the system to vanish and there just to be music. No box, no drivers, no crossover, no amplifiers, no pre-amp, no source unit, just music. I don't hear this with a Line Source system, I hear lots of dynamics. I hear lots of volume. In the McIntosh speakers I heard boat loads of clarity. But they still don't sound natural enough for my ears. There is something that is just not there. And it is the same thing that is missing when I listen to electro-static systems. There is something missing. If I figure it out exactly what it is I'll let you know...

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

The problem I have with your line array bashing is because you are

bashing a concept, not a specific design. It's like bashing a TMW design

vs. bashing a specific TMW design. You might as well preach that chicken

soup takes bad.

You are complaining that you heard a DIY line array that was load and

didn't sound good. Well then, who's fault is that? Do you blame the concept

of the line array or is it better to say the specific DIY line array you heard

wasn't a good design ? lol

Re: McIntosh line arrays. The only one that has potential to sound good is

the newest XRT2k;

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=20&cat=Loudspeaker+Systems&prodid=1114&product=XRT2K

But I can pick apart that design and show some flaws. lol

Re: Dali Megaline

Of all the commercial line arrays, this is the lesser of the evils. It has potential

to sound good, but it's not he best you can make DIY style.

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Im trying to get the most objective perspective, and im glad im getting another opinion on these speakers.

I can probably make a list of individuals familar with a good line array

design so you can get more testimony.

From what I've seen, here are some issues that people complain about

in regards to line arrays.

1. Cost. People always complain that they don't have money to execute

a line array design. Line arrays have a dollar disadvantage because

you need alot of drivers.

2. Crossover Design. Just like any other loudspeaker design, lacking a good

crossover design is not sweet. A line array with an digital crossover like a

DCX allows you can extract maximum performance of any loudspeaker, but

many people in the DIY world don't go fully active due to the complexity of

the setup and additional cost.

3. Big Sound Stage. They don't like the big sound stage because they are

use to listening to small speakers. It's hard for some people to make the adjustment. For me, I had no issues. I like the wall of sound. This isn't the line

array's fault, the person who designed the array created the large image size.

If you implement power tapering you can make the image normal size. Power

tapering can cause an increase in distortion but it's probably a moot issue unless

you are an power user and want to extract maximum performance all around.

4. Theorists.

These are the folks who worry too much about the science behind a project

that they can't accept the design even if there is no audible gremlins. I have

seen a few of these types in cyber.

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Line array pics that I've collected over time. Some are commerical, some are DIY,

some are good designs, others not as good. Many hybrid designs.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/

1. I think the first think you need to figure out is if you want OB, sealed, or a ported design.

2. Determine SPL goals.

3. An array of smaller ribbons or planars would be my first choice if you want higher SPL. $25 - $100 ea. is a good price range for them.

4. Remainder of the budget will go towards the midwoofers.

5. Make a full line array of tweeters and midwoofers, near floor to near ceiling height.

6. DCX2496 digital crossover.

7. Four channels of amplification minimum.

8. Wire the array with an impedance switch for selection of low and high impedance.

Example of OB

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/74.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/91.jpg

Example of sealed {majority of them are sealed}

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/8.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/12.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/18.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/35.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/36.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/54.jpg

Example of ported

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/1.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/2.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/6.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/7.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/15.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/16.jpg

Pics of hybrid line arrays - one tweeter only

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/30.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/40.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/43.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/50.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/58.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/69.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/80.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/82.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/3.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/5.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/90.jpg

Focused Array

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/85.jpg

Esoteric Designs

Commercial 4 way line array called Alon Exotica Grand Reference System - $250k

Midranges only are OB. Raven tweeters, Seas Excel midwoofers, unknown mids.

[This design is too busy and not needed.]

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/25.jpg

Genesis 1.1 array - $160k

Planar tweeters and mids, OB. Sub array, servo controlled.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/14.jpg

Swan line array. BG RD ribbon for midrange, planars for tweeters. midwoofers.

3 way, sub needed.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/31.jpg

McIntosh XRT2k

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/34.jpg

Regular line array [OmegaArray], Fountek ribbons, AC mids, integrated subwoofer.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/10.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/11.jpg

Small line source flanked by dual woofer above and below the array.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/55.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/55.jpg

Integrated subwoofer using an array of smaller drivers.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/89.jpg

BG Neo8 Tweeter Designs

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/6.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/9.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/17.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/32.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/64.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/66.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/71.jpg

Newform ribbon tweeter

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/18.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/19.jpg

PT2 or RT2 planar tweeter

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/1.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/2.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/15.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/36.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/37.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/41.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/54.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/63.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/73.jpg

Fountek or AC ribbon tweeter

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/8.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/10.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/12.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/35.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/39.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/61.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/62.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/74.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/78.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/86.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/89.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/90.jpg

BG RD tweeters

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/68.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/44.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/51.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/31.jpg

Dome Array Tweeters

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/20.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/22.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/23.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/34.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/38.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/42.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/45.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/47.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/57.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/60.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/65.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/75.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/76.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/77.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/81.jpg

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

It happens.

nG

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Yeah I dont really understand why you dont like them...theres several designs and bashing a concept isnt really credible.

I dont understand how there would be any distortion problems with using multiple drivers as long as the acoustic centers are within 1/2 wavelength for nearfield listening or 1 wavelength for farfield. The drivers will have less distortion by several orders of magnitude compared to a single driver...

Its certainly a different sound due to the absence of floor/ceiling reflections and much less distortion. Im not familiar with B&W loudspeakers, but maybe they incur a higher level of even order distortion that you find satisfying, on the same level that some enjoy the distortion brought about by tube amplifiers. Further information to reinforce this idea is the fact that you hate ESLs, due to their push-pull design they lack even-order distortion.

It also could be psychoacoustics, who knows?

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Could you be more specific on what you found unnatural about them?

400hz and 2500hz resonances? Are those simply areas where you're sensitive to distortion? What are you trying to say...?

Loads of Volume and Dynamics...hmm. You dont *have* to crank them up, volume shouldnt be an indicator of sound quality as you can control that variable quite easily. I dont see how having loads of headroom and dynamics could be a bad thing...I really dont. Maybe im misinterpreting what you're trying to convey?

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

I've listened to a lot of B&W's at a local high-end audio dealer, and I've found them to be very transparent.

nG

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

To me this argument seems very similar to the Chevy vs. Ford argument. Same shit different pile...

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

To me this argument seems very similar to the Chevy vs. Ford argument. Same shit different pile...

There is no argument. Someone here may be interested in building one

so all we do is provide data to help the design turn out best. Of course you

will get some folks to say 'I don't like them'. It's no big deal.

I encourage auditions in conjunction with data gathering. You should listen

to speakers before you buy or at at least audition types of speakers to

get a mental picture on what each type does. It's much harder to audition

arrays because they are harder to find at the local store.

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

Then there is also a problem of living out in the sticks where there isn't shit to audition...

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Then there is also a problem of living out in the sticks where there isn't shit to audition...

Could be worse.. no internet........... no p0rn //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif