Need opinion on good 3000+ amp

[Blackout67]

It’s basically how well the amp can control the subs. I can explain way more in detail, but I think there’s quite a few various factors that play into damping factor. One is half bridge and full bridge amps have different styles of power supplies, and with the way I see a lot of full bridge sub amps done, it’s done to be cheap power, so there’s consequences to cheap power with these modern day full bridges. Wattage is not wattage, in that case, to an extent.

Ohhh I think I heard something about that. How well the amp can make the woofer move from a stand still and vice versa. Makes the response tighter and I right?

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Ohhh I think I heard something about that. How well the amp can make the woofer move from a stand still and vice versa. Makes the response tighter and I right?

I’ve experienced over time that amps with a higher damping factor help play music better; they seem to have less cutting out issues under extreme stress with music. Enclosure design realistically plays into a damping factor component, it seems, but better amps tend to play further away from tuning frequency, with how the woofer unloads away from tuning/high xmax. The position of the coil within the field concentration of the motor, at whatever motion it’s doing, changes the state of the coil, which changes what the amp has to deal with, electrically. Amps seem to become electrically unstable at some level of massive cone movement due to field induction. That’s what I think.

 

[Blackout67]

I’ve experienced over time that amps with a higher damping factor help play music better; they seem to have less cutting out issues under extreme stress with music. Enclosure design realistically plays into a damping factor component, it seems, but better amps tend to play further away from tuning frequency, with how the woofer unloads away from tuning/high xmax. The position of the coil within the field concentration of the motor, at whatever motion it’s doing, changes the state of the coil, which changes what the amp has to deal with, electrically. Amps seem to become electrically unstable at some level of massive cone movement due to field induction. That’s what I think.

Well what are good amps with decent damping factor? The ones I were looking at have a factor of 100 which you said isn't great. What brands make the best amps for less than $350 and can put out 2k-3k?

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Well what are good amps with decent damping factor? The ones I were looking at have a factor of 100 which you said isn't great. What brands make the best amps for less than $350 and can put out 2k-3k?

I do not know on the price-aspect. There’s so many companies that make amps. Maybe check out the CAB amps (not sure what type they are). I’d totally do less power to get a better musical amp, personally. You can always post up what you find.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

It’s basically how well the amp can control the subs. I can explain way more in detail, but I think there’s quite a few various factors that play into damping factor. One is half bridge and full bridge amps have different styles of power supplies, and with the way I see a lot of full bridge sub amps done, it’s done to be cheap power, so there’s consequences to cheap power with these modern day full bridges. Wattage is not wattage, in that case, to an extent.

Wattage is not wattage? Wtf are you flapping your gums about now? Put the shitt on a dyno and see the wattage. Are you trying to say that you don't trust dyno's now? Please tell the guy who is clamping over 8,300 watts on his Smart5 that there is consequences to his full bridge amp. Please don't anybody believe this bullshitt conspiracy theorist. The guy is a virgin who never leaves the house.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

Well what are good amps with decent damping factor? The ones I were looking at have a factor of 100 which you said isn't great. What brands make the best amps for less than $350 and can put out 2k-3k?

You won't find a Korean 3K for your price range. I look at signal to noise ratio as the key factor in an amp. Try and find an amp with at least a signal to noise ratio over 100. Look at the Sundown SIA3500. It has a Chinese board with Korean parts and a signal to noise ratio of 108.

 

[djdilliodon!]

If you do anything in the back seat area, I would stay away from going sealed and do ported. In many cases doing sealed like that output can suffer big time compared to when it’s in a trunk. If you have something that’s sealed already in the trunk, throw it in the back seat facing forward or up and see the difference for yourself.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

higher damping factor

Which might as well be promises of rainbows and unicorn tears. The following is from the Zed Audio manual AND is assuming 4 ohm drivers. Numbers get far worse real-world when you run even lower impedance.

MYTHS, MAGIC AND FACTS
Damping Factor - This amplifier specification has been blown out of all proportion. What
it means is the ability of the amplifier to resist a change in it’s output voltage. The formula
is DF= Speaker Z / Amplifier output Z (where Z is impedance). So many manufacturers
have claimed ridiculous, and often false damping factors. A damping factor of 1000
implies that the output impedance of the amplifier is 0.004 ohms (4 ohm load). The only
way to attain this figure is to apply masses of negative feedback (or use positive
feedback) and too much feedback makes amplifiers sound harsh and clinical. Also
damping factor changes with frequency. The lower the frequency the higher the DF
number. Typically the DF can be ten times larger at higher frequencies.
Let us take this amplifier whose output impedance is 0.004 ohms (Zout). The speaker
circuit is a series circuit and the following impedances(resistances) are in series with this
0.004 ohms. Let us assume that this DF measurement was made at the amplifier’s
speaker terminal. The first extra contact resistance is the speaker wire to the speaker
terminal (WT ohms). Then there is that of the wire itself for two conductors (W). Next is
the contact resistance of the wire to the speaker terminal (WS). Next there is the contact
resistance of the wire from the speaker terminal to the voice coil (WV) and lastly there is
the DC resistance of the voice coil itself (DCR). So what we have is a series circuit with
the following resistances in series and adding up. WT+W+WS+WV+DCR+Zout.
WT,W,WS,WV and Zout are very small indeed. Certainly less than 0.1 ohms. Whoa, look
what has happened the EFFECTIVE DAMPING FACTOR has been reduced from 1000 to
40 by just taking into account those pesky unavoidable contact resistances. Now for the
cruncher, remember that the DCR is also in series and is typically 3.2 ohms for a nominal
4 ohm speaker. So we must add 0.1+3.2 = 3.3 ohms and now EFFECTIVE DAMPING
FACTOR is now a magnificent 1.212! (4 divided by 3.3)This is the real world. We see that
the DCR of the speaker swamps all other resistances in the speaker circuit and the 0.004
ohms amplifier output impedance is almost meaningless. It has been found that a DF of
about 20 is quite sufficient to dampen the voltage spikes from the speaker. An eye opener
this one is it not? Good tube amps sound marvelous - low damping factors!!

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Which might as well be promises of rainbows and unicorn tears. The following is from the Zed Audio manual AND is assuming 4 ohm drivers. Numbers get far worse real-world when you run even lower impedance.

MYTHS, MAGIC AND FACTS
Damping Factor - This amplifier specification has been blown out of all proportion. What
it means is the ability of the amplifier to resist a change in it’s output voltage. The formula
is DF= Speaker Z / Amplifier output Z (where Z is impedance). So many manufacturers
have claimed ridiculous, and often false damping factors. A damping factor of 1000
implies that the output impedance of the amplifier is 0.004 ohms (4 ohm load). The only
way to attain this figure is to apply masses of negative feedback (or use positive
feedback) and too much feedback makes amplifiers sound harsh and clinical. Also
damping factor changes with frequency. The lower the frequency the higher the DF
number. Typically the DF can be ten times larger at higher frequencies.
Let us take this amplifier whose output impedance is 0.004 ohms (Zout). The speaker
circuit is a series circuit and the following impedances(resistances) are in series with this
0.004 ohms. Let us assume that this DF measurement was made at the amplifier’s
speaker terminal. The first extra contact resistance is the speaker wire to the speaker
terminal (WT ohms). Then there is that of the wire itself for two conductors (W). Next is
the contact resistance of the wire to the speaker terminal (WS). Next there is the contact
resistance of the wire from the speaker terminal to the voice coil (WV) and lastly there is
the DC resistance of the voice coil itself (DCR). So what we have is a series circuit with
the following resistances in series and adding up. WT+W+WS+WV+DCR+Zout.
WT,W,WS,WV and Zout are very small indeed. Certainly less than 0.1 ohms. Whoa, look
what has happened the EFFECTIVE DAMPING FACTOR has been reduced from 1000 to
40 by just taking into account those pesky unavoidable contact resistances. Now for the
cruncher, remember that the DCR is also in series and is typically 3.2 ohms for a nominal
4 ohm speaker. So we must add 0.1+3.2 = 3.3 ohms and now EFFECTIVE DAMPING
FACTOR is now a magnificent 1.212! (4 divided by 3.3)This is the real world. We see that
the DCR of the speaker swamps all other resistances in the speaker circuit and the 0.004
ohms amplifier output impedance is almost meaningless. It has been found that a DF of
about 20 is quite sufficient to dampen the voltage spikes from the speaker. An eye opener
this one is it not? Good tube amps sound marvelous - low damping factors!!

It depends on if it’s a sub amp or speaker amp, from what I’ve seen. I studied amplifier circuitry to get to that conclusion, and like I said, it’s in more extreme situations when you’ll see problems. Frequency matters, and it has to do with the internal wiring of how the actual amp works between half and full bridge sub amps.

You don’t have to be azz about it. Like wtf is that? Would you have even researched that if I hadn’t said it? I didn’t even say it was everything, and I like how you fail to include all the context is was explaining it in. I just said it’s what I look for- it seems to be a hidden quality factor in sub amps. I’ve tested playing below tuning frequency with amps I had and the ones with a higher dampening factor played lower and louder. I never said it was the end all be all. God damn dude get the f*ck over the unnecessary drama. You feel good about being right? Why can’t you just post “This is what I found?” Does your Johnson feel longer now?

 

[Blackout67]

All right guys chill. Let's not turn this into a war. Put your 2 cents in and leave it at that no need to be aggressive

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Which might as well be promises of rainbows and unicorn tears. The following is from the Zed Audio manual AND is assuming 4 ohm drivers. Numbers get far worse real-world when you run even lower impedance.

MYTHS, MAGIC AND FACTS
Damping Factor - This amplifier specification has been blown out of all proportion. What
it means is the ability of the amplifier to resist a change in it’s output voltage. The formula
is DF= Speaker Z / Amplifier output Z (where Z is impedance). So many manufacturers
have claimed ridiculous, and often false damping factors. A damping factor of 1000
implies that the output impedance of the amplifier is 0.004 ohms (4 ohm load). The only
way to attain this figure is to apply masses of negative feedback (or use positive
feedback) and too much feedback makes amplifiers sound harsh and clinical. Also
damping factor changes with frequency. The lower the frequency the higher the DF
number. Typically the DF can be ten times larger at higher frequencies.
Let us take this amplifier whose output impedance is 0.004 ohms (Zout). The speaker
circuit is a series circuit and the following impedances(resistances) are in series with this
0.004 ohms. Let us assume that this DF measurement was made at the amplifier’s
speaker terminal. The first extra contact resistance is the speaker wire to the speaker
terminal (WT ohms). Then there is that of the wire itself for two conductors (W). Next is
the contact resistance of the wire to the speaker terminal (WS). Next there is the contact
resistance of the wire from the speaker terminal to the voice coil (WV) and lastly there is
the DC resistance of the voice coil itself (DCR). So what we have is a series circuit with
the following resistances in series and adding up. WT+W+WS+WV+DCR+Zout.
WT,W,WS,WV and Zout are very small indeed. Certainly less than 0.1 ohms. Whoa, look
what has happened the EFFECTIVE DAMPING FACTOR has been reduced from 1000 to
40 by just taking into account those pesky unavoidable contact resistances. Now for the
cruncher, remember that the DCR is also in series and is typically 3.2 ohms for a nominal
4 ohm speaker. So we must add 0.1+3.2 = 3.3 ohms and now EFFECTIVE DAMPING
FACTOR is now a magnificent 1.212! (4 divided by 3.3)This is the real world. We see that
the DCR of the speaker swamps all other resistances in the speaker circuit and the 0.004
ohms amplifier output impedance is almost meaningless. It has been found that a DF of
about 20 is quite sufficient to dampen the voltage spikes from the speaker. An eye opener
this one is it not? Good tube amps sound marvelous - low damping factors!!

And voltages spike and dips are going to be much worse with a sub with a monster magnet and 3000w and 50mm xmax trying to play 20 hz and then up to 50 hz, for example, vs a door speaker. When you have a half-bridge amp, your electrical system seems to add to the damping, depending on overall capacity and rate of charge. Full bridge and half bridge amps work differently, especially with the power supplies, and you can see that in the damping factor, based off how exactly those power supplies differ, from all of my experience. Half bridge amps seem to be able to control the woofers better with their power supply design, if you have good electrical, because they can pulse both polarities back into your 12v system. We aren’t talking about simply speakers but subwoofers, and subwoofers have a much different dynamic with their higher x-max and these crazy power levels with these crazy motors that can cause massive spikes during an unloading situation. Like I said, it’s what I look for, because I think it’s a hidden quality factor SPECIFICALLY with sub amps.

Check out the damping factor with those **** full bridge Chinese amps you hate, if they even list it.

 

[mat3833 10+ year member]

And voltages spike and dips are going to be much worse with a sub with a monster magnet and 3000w and 50mm xmax trying to play 20 hz and then up to 50 hz, for example, vs a door speaker. When you have a half-bridge amp, your electrical system seems to add to the damping, depending on overall capacity and rate of charge. Full bridge and half bridge amps work differently, especially with the power supplies, and you can see that in the damping factor, based off how exactly those power supplies differ, from all of my experience. Half bridge amps seem to be able to control the woofers better with their power supply design, if you have good electrical, because they can pulse both polarities back into your 12v system. We aren’t talking about simply speakers but subwoofers, and subwoofers have a much different dynamic with their higher x-max and these crazy power levels with these crazy motors that can cause massive spikes during an unloading situation. Like I said, it’s what I look for, because I think it’s a hidden quality factor SPECIFICALLY with sub amps.

Check out the damping factor with those **** full bridge Chinese amps you hate, if they even list it.

OK, I will speak only from experience with my personal builds/amps I've ran in the past.

Boston Acoustics Gt-2300 at 4 ohm. This amp doesn't list damping factor, but it's a class a/b surfboard that I loved. I ran a few different subs on it, a pair of SA-8's, a single TC9 based 12 with oem soft parts, and a pair of JBL W15gti subs.

Saz-1500d and 2500d 4 and 2 ohm on both. I beleive these have a damping factor of 350 or so. Great little amps, ran them on the same 3 subs as the Boston.

Mmats D2100.2, can't find a manual for this one or the newer M series amp. This one ran the JBL subs only.

Helix M one, damping factor of 100. Ran this on a Kicker CVR 12(old school 2010-ish model) a 10w6v2 and a TC pro-5100 hybrid.

Taramps Smart 3 no damping factor listed. This has powered the Kicker, the W6, and the TC.

Out of all of these combinations, the amp had the least impact on the sound. Most of my subs have been ran "infinite baffle" in a ~16 cubic trunk baffle so damping factor should be super important. Honestly, the Mmats sounded the best on the JBL subs, and I prefer the taramps over the Helix on the TC sub.

But hey, I'm just a pleb that likes big cone area and expensive front stages.

Matt

Edit:
I like the smart 3 so much, I just bought a smart 5 for more power. I don't personally think damping factor plays a huge role with subs. I can see it making a difference with small-lighter speakers like 3" midrange drivers that are changing direction thousands of times a second, but for subwoofers, inductance values would be more of a factor than damping factor from what I've read/experienced.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

It depends on if it’s a sub amp or speaker amp, from what I’ve seen. I studied amplifier circuitry to get to that conclusion, and like I said, it’s in more extreme situations when you’ll see problems. Frequency matters, and it has to do with the internal wiring of how the actual amp works between half and full bridge sub amps.

You don’t have to be azz about it. Like wtf is that? Would you have even researched that if I hadn’t said it? I didn’t even say it was everything, and I like how you fail to include all the context is was explaining it in. I just said it’s what I look for- it seems to be a hidden quality factor in sub amps. I’ve tested playing below tuning frequency with amps I had and the ones with a higher dampening factor played lower and louder. I never said it was the end all be all. God damn dude get the f*ck over the unnecessary drama. You feel good about being right? Why can’t you just post “This is what I found?” Does your Johnson feel longer now?

Triggered again! Buck are you out here making friends again? I love it.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

Which might as well be promises of rainbows and unicorn tears. The following is from the Zed Audio manual AND is assuming 4 ohm drivers. Numbers get far worse real-world when you run even lower impedance.

MYTHS, MAGIC AND FACTS
Damping Factor - This amplifier specification has been blown out of all proportion. What
it means is the ability of the amplifier to resist a change in it’s output voltage. The formula
is DF= Speaker Z / Amplifier output Z (where Z is impedance). So many manufacturers
have claimed ridiculous, and often false damping factors. A damping factor of 1000
implies that the output impedance of the amplifier is 0.004 ohms (4 ohm load). The only
way to attain this figure is to apply masses of negative feedback (or use positive
feedback) and too much feedback makes amplifiers sound harsh and clinical. Also
damping factor changes with frequency. The lower the frequency the higher the DF
number. Typically the DF can be ten times larger at higher frequencies.
Let us take this amplifier whose output impedance is 0.004 ohms (Zout). The speaker
circuit is a series circuit and the following impedances(resistances) are in series with this
0.004 ohms. Let us assume that this DF measurement was made at the amplifier’s
speaker terminal. The first extra contact resistance is the speaker wire to the speaker
terminal (WT ohms). Then there is that of the wire itself for two conductors (W). Next is
the contact resistance of the wire to the speaker terminal (WS). Next there is the contact
resistance of the wire from the speaker terminal to the voice coil (WV) and lastly there is
the DC resistance of the voice coil itself (DCR). So what we have is a series circuit with
the following resistances in series and adding up. WT+W+WS+WV+DCR+Zout.
WT,W,WS,WV and Zout are very small indeed. Certainly less than 0.1 ohms. Whoa, look
what has happened the EFFECTIVE DAMPING FACTOR has been reduced from 1000 to
40 by just taking into account those pesky unavoidable contact resistances. Now for the
cruncher, remember that the DCR is also in series and is typically 3.2 ohms for a nominal
4 ohm speaker. So we must add 0.1+3.2 = 3.3 ohms and now EFFECTIVE DAMPING
FACTOR is now a magnificent 1.212! (4 divided by 3.3)This is the real world. We see that
the DCR of the speaker swamps all other resistances in the speaker circuit and the 0.004
ohms amplifier output impedance is almost meaningless. It has been found that a DF of
about 20 is quite sufficient to dampen the voltage spikes from the speaker. An eye opener
this one is it not? Good tube amps sound marvelous - low damping factors!!

I prefer to look at signal to noise ratio over damping factor. Just my $.02

 

[Clifff150 10+ year member]

S/N ratio isn’t the be-all and end-all either. Company A can have a higher S/N ratio than Company B on a spec sheet but if they were rated the exact same way, Company B could be higher.

The amps I’ve owned with a high damping factor tend to be more tolerant to abuse and hold up better. There could be no correlation, could be a coincidence or just could be because amps with higher damping factors tend to be built with better components.