midbass location

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

You made my point. Trying to postion all the speakers to fit your listening postion in a car is impossible. Thats why HU's and EQs have these functions. You could bulid a car seat with all your speakers wrapped around your ears but we don't do that yet. Getting all the sound to reach your ears in phase "Timed" at once is impossible. Even with all the processing HU's or EQ's with sonic images being made from the stereo signal you get that center sound field where there is no speaker to start with.
Concert halls still stage speakers Front, Center, Rear and even Above, And they don't have to deal with road noise, Small cabin space etc.

If your installing "Midbass" Drivers in a threeway system which they should be if your installing them. You set your LP at 120hz or less you just removed 2/3's of there design function. They will have there own amp cause you can not add them to your Sub amp, The Xmax is to small.

Tie them to the front stage amp "Mid & Tweeters" and they sound like crap, Cause they can not play above 400hz. They are designed to play in the Bandpass response range of 100hz~400hz. If you doubt me call any quality speaker company that makes them. When setup correct you should not know where they are located. If you can the Despersion level "Timing" are setup wrong. Midbass drivers have a highier despersion level so they are less effected by location.

Now for the real fun. The installing of DVD players is making installers unlearn all these locations cause now we have to bring 5.1+ to the auto. You will now have to deal with surround sound fields.

Honestly, your arguing with hebrew hammer about SQ 101, this is dumb. Your just making yourself look stupid.

First off, your amp comment makes no sense. Run an active setup, dedicated channels for each driver, viola, problem solved.

Secondly, "setup properly" as you put it, is ALOT more than time alignment. You can't simply place a driver wherever you want and t/a it to sounding correct. A midbass that's behind you will sound like it's behind you. The frequencies are too high, your going to draw your soundstage back. The only allowance a midbass driver will give you is that you can usually mount them off axis with no real penalty.

Lastly, while getting drivers in proper locations in a car is more or less impossible, you can get fairly close. There's a reason why kickpanels are favored over a high spot on your door panel for a midrange location... Combine that the ability to adjust phase on each driver, mounting certain drivers off axis, and controlling reflections and you can get VERY accurate soundstage within a vehicle. Anyway, I'm not sure what you meant by the "center sound field", that' supposed to be there. It should be the center of your car from either seat if you system is setup properly.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

scott's new and old 240

Yeah Team Hammer is proving to be an idiot, not just in this post either.

I'm sure you've seen Scott's Altima though, right? Midbasses in the doors. No sub up front (though the midbasses are set up to play down below 50Hz). Tweets in the A-pillars. Mids in the kicks. Time alignment (though proper install came first).

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

Yeah Team Hammer is proving to be an idiot, not just in this post either.
I'm sure you've seen Scott's Altima though, right? Midbasses in the doors. No sub up front (though the midbasses are set up to play down below 50Hz). Tweets in the A-pillars. Mids in the kicks. Time alignment (though proper install came first).

there's a 15 in the dash........

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

there's a 15 in the dash........

There didn't used to be...3 12's across the rear shelf, yes. Recent addition?

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

There didn't used to be...3 12's across the rear shelf, yes. Recent addition?

sorry I miss read.....I thought you were talking about the blue 240....my bad

in regards to xover points...I have my front stage which is only a 2way using 5's are xover at 30hz

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

sorry I miss read.....I thought you were talking about the blue 240....my bad
in regards to xover points...I have my front stage which is only a 2way using 5's are xover at 30hz

Enclosure's must be built like tanks...

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

Enclosure's must be built like tanks...

about 14 pounds per kick with out the drivers installed....so **** dynamic it makes you blink //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/up2something.gif.dd110ecf3ae4b76050d87598f2f8de7c.gif

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

Under 250-300hz is a non-sensitive frequency region to humans. We can’t locate the sound on the azimuth (horizontally) within these frequencies. There definitely aren't any front- to- back or vertical cues within those frequency ranges. Someone could mount a speaker reproducing 200hz with an acoustical stop band of 36db/oct behind them and never be able to discern a point source location from it.

For mid-bass duty speakers, usually people have them reproducing above 250 hz. It's ideal to properly aim them for horizontal localization. Moving them up an down is only going to change the DB level, it's not going to change the height of the music at all.

As far as time alignment goes, typically it's the lesser of 2 evils. Tweeters need to be mounted high, because they dominate vertical localization and depth localization. It's close to impossible in a lot of car's to mount the mid that high. I choose time alignment over lowering my tweeter for combining the point sources.

Phase shifts associated with delaying signals to realign the source point time, aren't audible.

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

this is were in car and out of car differ...sub bass can be localized very easily from tactile energy transfer and improper level matching, cabin gain etc.....

another point...some lower male vocals go under 300...depending on how it's recorded...either singer center stage-stage right-stage left are all things that if the drivers are not placed properly will not reproduce a pin point and true soundstage...

also...volume near field in a closed in car plays tricks on a listener...allot of systems when pushed to moderate levels loose the technical stuff...this is normaly due to improper placement....

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

If anything, inside a car and reflection/vibration makes localization harder.

Haptic cues, the whole "physical" cue not just tactile, aren't necessarily going to be localized more or less easily with alternating placements of midbass. Haptic cues are primarily learned cues. For example, if you're a drummer and you feel the kick drum vibrations at certain areas, and you don't feelt the same kickdrum when the music is reproduced, you may sense an irregular localization. So someone can't say they would localize a kickdrum more or less easily with midbass upfront just due to haptic cues. They possibly could say the feeling is more familiar if they are used to in a certain position.

Frequencies under 300hz aren't easily localized by people, and frequencies under 200hz are definitely not localized. They do contain cues, but we don't process them efficiently through the HRTF. Just like an instrument, parts of the frequencies reproduced by a single instrument can provide various localization cues, depending on the bandwidth it reproduces. The same goes for the human voice. Under 300hz to 250hz. We probably can’t localize it very well, and in a car we probably have even a harder time.

The bottom line is midbass needs to be aimed and mounted for a horizontal localization.

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

you are crazy if you think that vibration doesn't give location queues...stop reading out of a text book and start listening to real comp cars...do me a favor....next time you can take the chance to go to an IASCA or MECA or whatever show...and you get a chance to listen to a car...raise your feet off the floor...and watch the stage lift about a foot...why you say...well tactile energy transfer does and will give away location queues..energy transfer from door mounted midabsses give away location queues...you want to argue therory with real life?... real life will always win IMO...

so tell me this bud...how then can sub bass pull the stage back if it's not localizable? Hmm...and I'm not talking by resonance...distortion...etc?...

I have listened to and built more cars than prolly anybody on this board...and I have been around the block once or twice...everything in a car can be localized to a point...plain and simple

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

you are crazy if you think that vibration doesn't give location queues...stop reading out of a text book and start listening to real comp cars...do me a favor....next time you can take the chance to go to an IASCA or MECA or whatever show...and you get a chance to listen to a car...raise your feet off the floor...and watch the stage lift about a foot...why you say...well tactile energy transfer does and will give away location queues..energy transfer from door mounted midabsses give away location queues...you want to argue therory with real life?... real life will always win IMO...

I used to go all the time. Enter, listen, whatever....too much work now to go to comps. You think that most comp car's base their install on actual sound quality....

Give me a break...it's mostly aesthetics, cleanliness, and bling.

My real life wins over your real life //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Especially when it's backed up by provable theories and scientific testing.

Maybe psychoacoustics has a lot to do with whatever you're experiencing... wait maybe I put my feet on the dash and raise my sound stage 3 feet //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

so tell me this bud...how then can sub bass pull the stage back if it's not localizable? Hmm...and I'm not talking by resonance...distortion...etc?...

Well you're not talking about it, but that's why it does, IF it does. Harmonics & resonances. I've listened to quite a few setups with midbass in the rear, I drove around in my 3000GT with midbass near the trunk, and never had my sound stage pulled back. But I should have right...?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

I have listen and built more cars than prolly anybody on this board...and I have been around the block once or twice...everything in a car can be localized to a point...plain and simple

Maybe that's why you're stuck on your way of thinking and why you let whatever psychoacoustics rule your judgment.

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

I have heard it all now folks....dude...go live in your dream world

and it's obvious you have never been to a major iasca comp nor meca...because it's as far from bling as you cna get...nice try dude

 

[Hebrew Hammer 10+ year member]

Maybe that's why you're stuck on your way of thinking and why you let whatever psychoacoustics rule your judgment.

and it's prolly the fact that you don't know what you are listening to?......or how to listen?.....