Litium car audio batteries

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

very happy to see this technical knowledge come out regarding lithiums

 

[tymoto21 10+ year member]

Headway 8ah cells
Weve tried both. Both "work", neither are without minor flaws

what are the minor flaws with the headway cells?

i bought 16 of them for like $100 but didnt get to build buss bars yet.

i was going to run them un ballanced.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

I just dont think lithium is figured out enough for mass car audio use. All the batteries we made work. Heck, we clamped 17k+ on 2 160ah tenergys with only junk powermaster ebay alt. I had no problem clamping 5k+ on 1 80ah tenergy and stock alt. We also recently paired a 40ah headway with stock alt and clamped almost 5k. Bc5500 wired at 0.25, dropping to mid 11s on music.

I just dont like the voltage drop before discharge. It hurts me when im chasing for tenths. And ive found that amps wired low, will drop lithium in a heartbeat.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

what are the minor flaws with the headway cells?i bought 16 of them for like $100 but didnt get to build buss bars yet.

i was going to run them un ballanced.

You are aiming for a 32ah unit? I'll say it will be ok for 3k ish. The headways, like the Tenergy tended to drop quickly.

4 banks of 4 will be easy to buss... but we recently did a 160ah 16v Headway, and it was so big, we think we have weak points in the bussing. Points of higher resistance

 

[tymoto21 10+ year member]

i wanted to try out lithium but was not going to drop $1000+ on a 40aH so i looked around a bit and found those. figured i would give them a shot.

and i got them for like $32 a 4 pack so i got 4 packs.

i have a mill so making buss bars is easy.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

It will work... depending on expectations. What amp do you have and where are you wiring?

 

[shizzzon 10+ year member]

i wanted to try out lithium but was not going to drop $1000+ on a 40aH so i looked around a bit and found those. figured i would give them a shot.and i got them for like $32 a 4 pack so i got 4 packs.

i have a mill so making buss bars is easy.

for that price, they are either used or heavily outdated. Performance will not emulate new cells primarily due to imbalancing issues. This is common issue with DIY banks used.

If you do not have these issues, you got lucky batch.

 

[tymoto21 10+ year member]

I’m gonna wire my 5k to .5 or 15k to 2 and set gain low

I have 2 Duracell g31’s and stock alt.

I’m limited on space so I figured I would drop low it I push it too hard anyway

And yeah they were used

Worst case they go into a 1000w powerwheel project I’m doing

 

[SubbinNCali 10+ year member]

Lithium has pros and cons. Depends what your system goals are. Lithium actually ***** for full on burp cars. Caps are much better imo. Lithium is better for music builds, but still needs alt support. Otherwise it will deliver its amperage at 12v. I still honestly think that all things equal, a bank of quality agm like XS or Northstar will still outperform lithium. But there are space and weight constraints.
To me, the ideal lithium customer is someone who doesnt chase the meter, and has definite weight or size restrictions.

Ive used commercially released lithium (Limitless) and garage made lithium (tenergy and headway)... my observations are true for both

Yup, describes one of my current builds to a T! My real world experience.....

I have a 70 VW Bug with a stock 65 amp alt, Sundown 6k, couple O/S MTX-Black and Golds for mid and highs all rated to deliver their power at 12.5 volts. I have two G34's (Yellow Tops) under my rear seat and had a Crescendo G31 where the spare tires is supposed to sit (up front). I would play into high 10's. Swapped the Crescendo for a JY 45.6. Now I play high 12's during same conditions.

Exactly what I wanted. I'm not a numbers chaser, but do meter from time to time. My only regret is not going with the 80. I may add caps down the road too.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

you would need higher voltage charging.
If you did lifepo4, you'd be resting at 16.5v with parasitic load or 17.5v if you keep them isolated.

Charging for them would be 18.0v max, 16.9v minimum to 90%.

Usable capacity- once it hits 14.25v, not much left in pack (assuming gradual roll off, not burst of power)

If LTO, there are some slight variations but generally it would be-

6s (not 5s), Charge- 16.8v max, resting- up to 16.8v if kept isolated, up to 16.4v if parasitic draw

Usable capacity- once it hits 13.2v, not much left in the pack. (assuming gradual roll off, not burst of power)

Lifepo4 would give you much more consistent power because it's power band is in the upper voltage range only but requires higher charging.

Thought about doing a 14 volt system but XS power rep says I need a charging at least 16.4. I figuredf I do 15.9 I'd be ok but that doesn't sit well with the XS power up rep

 

[shizzzon 10+ year member]

Im not a chemist to know WHY, or what specifically is going on. But most ppl I know who jumped on the hype train and converted large agm and or cap banks to lithium, lost on the meter. Lithium is weird, it will deliver its amperage burst, but will still drop. Anyone that chases tenths will know that 5k clean at 14v will meter louder than 5k at 11.5v.
I tested a limitless 15ah, supposedly good for 3k on stock alt, vs a group 31 deka agm. The deka was stronger, clamped more power, and metered higher. That 15ah stopped making clean, usable power for me around the 2k mark.

A teamate of mine went from 80ah JY plus 6 banks of caps, to 160ah of lith only. He lost 1 full db on the meter.

Adam Dukes told me at finals that when he went from a huge agm to lithium bank, he lost. He is now converting to a massive cap bank.

As a burp guy, id personally prefer 1 bank of caps per every 1-2k clamped. The downside of agm is space. I like about 50ah per 1k, for virtually no drop. So clamping 5k for example, thats 2-3 g31's already.

Caps and agm would be my preferred combo for a smaller setup. Caps and lith for larger. The caps should be wired in after the battery.

I dont know the chemistry reasons. I just know what loses and what doesnt, and i know what the loud people at finals were doing

Ok, first thing, these companies that give the blanket statement of Xah is good for X wattage, never pay attention to that.

We need to know xC to xVoltage and if possible for xDuration as well.

I've done many tests with the cells we have here and have seen NOTHING out there that can beat them spec-wise.

Of course these cells are wide open, non-enclosed which will effect higher C rate.. that's why i'm looking into a new type of casing.

The example of 80ah + caps to just larger lithium is a given..

THERE WILL BE NO BATTERY ON THIS PLANET THAT WILL BE BETTER THAN ULTRACAPACITORS.

Because of the design, they cannot be beat. However, they have 0.1% reserve capacity but for burps or short durational use, they are king.

Adam Dukes example- I dont know his from to then bank.. but if he lost going to lithium.. then he didnt size the bank right. If he went off of the "Wattage" suggestion.. then that's clear reason why.

From a DIY point of view as of right now, Lithium is cheaper than the good AGM batteries are and perform better.

Perform better means they produce X amperage while holding a voltage higher than AGM.

IF you have ever tested lithium on a STATIC load and the voltage is slowly falling, then those cells are TERRIBLE for car audio.

Our cells hold voltage and will only start to fall once capacity is below 20%.

I have tested lithium now for 3 years before i finally stopped and stuck with these.

I'm sure if you test some REAL bad ones like prismatics, you'd get the feeling agm is better.

It's all a matter of sizing the bank right.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

4 banks of 4 will be easy to buss... but we recently did a 160ah 16v Headway, and it was so big, we think we have weak points in the bussing.

Why not stick with smaller banks then use some chunky terminals so you can jump them together with some big cable?

Ok, first thing, these companies that give the blanket statement of Xah is good for X wattage, never pay attention to that.

I couldn't get a straight answer from anybody when I was trying to shop for Lithium a year ago, that's why I steered clear. I am looking to add another amp this year and drop them to .35 (at least for burps) and I definitely can't afford the weight or space for another 550AH or more of AGM. I'm dropping to 12.08V on a burp anyway so I'm leaning towards trying some DIY lithium banks as pretty much my only option.

 

[mrj858 10+ year member]

Everyone I know down here in SoCal has gained using lithium....by a db or more....everyone who didn't gain didn't size it right ...I also know people who have thrown in Ultra caps and lost on the meter...why?...cause they didn't size right

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

The thing with the whole "sizing right"..

Lithium is already expensive. And if it cannot perform to wattage claims, and we actually need more; than it is cost prohibitive for many people.

We seeked out the DIY route as a low cost alternative. We knew we had to size bigger because we used lower quality cells. But if xs, limitless, jy etc cant even perform at their rating.... then its wayyy too rich for my blood.

One of my teammates currently runs 2 Flatline 9.5s on 16v. He plans to go to 4 9.5s. The lith companies would have you believe that 2 80ah will support his system. But I know that it wont. So lets say that he actually needs 4 80ah... thats 8000$. At that cost, he'd be better off dropping 2k on caps and 2k on 16v XS agms.

 

[mrj858 10+ year member]

Sizing right yes....you can't listen to "wattage" claims ....if those were true I should be able to get away with running 3 xs power d3100s according to their "wattage" chart right?? From mine and others down here in SoCals REAL world testing of actual car audio pushed brands

Jy,limitless,jb/mi-solar etc it seems about every 10ah of THOSE brands equals 100ah of agm....C ratings make a HUGE difference...that's why everyone who was running 100,000 ah or whatever if Winston type low C rates cells were wondering why they kept dropping voltage...you can have 100 plus ah of lithium but if it only discharge 100amps because of low C ratings that's the problem.....are you talking about Ray? If so we chopped it up at the CES showdown and I told him with his Alt power I'd do 2 of the 100 ah Limitless which should be ok...my boy team no fuse jeff runs 2 singer alts on 2 DC 10ks with ONLY 180ah of limitless lithium and does a 161.5 sealed on the dash....so lithium does work