Lithium Titanate (LTO) battery bank build.

[Boominburban]

I've built a few LTO batteries for others. There is not much money in it really. After cells, correct size/type bussing, a case, attachment hardware, the cost of the equipment it actually takes to efficiently build them, then wear and tear on your equipment to build one. And the amount of time it actually takes to do it. And most everyone knows what the cells actually cost now. It's really not worth the liability you may have from an end user's possible mistakes.

I'm happy if anything I've said has helped you . You are welcome.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

A123 32113 cells are 30C rated and have been tested to do even a little more.  I know one of those tailor made lithium companies uses those, the rest likely use something similar/comparable.  So indeed, a 15AH battery could deliver 450A.  I think your big issue there is the charge rating of only 5C IIRC, meaning charging with greater than 150A would probably hurt them far faster than quick burst draws.    Mind you 15AH is still 15AH so you don't have that much on tap, just what you have you can get a lot of very quickly. 

Unfortunately they told me any charging capacity is fine and that the batteries will just "take what they need." I know it's not true, but I wasn't in the mood to get in an argument. This is the company you're talking about who uses a123 cells. 

I have a few comments about shizzzon getting back to me as well whether it be batteries or otherwise, but I'll keep it to myself. 

 

[L1ttlet]

I've built a few LTO batteries for others. There is not much money in it really. After cells, correct size/type bussing, a case, attachment hardware, the cost of the equipment it actually takes to efficiently build them, then wear and tear on your equipment to build one. And the amount of time it actually takes to do it. And most everyone knows what the cells actually cost now. It's really not worth the liability you may have from an end user's possible mistakes.

I'm happy if anything I've said has helped you . You are welcome.

Ah okay. Well it can't  be to bad or there wouldn't  be a market for them. Lol

I'm thinking it's  not to much. An initial investment in the special chargers. (For my use I  won't  need) then but raw aluminum 6061. I can pick up 1 and 1/2 by 1/4 by 48" for 20$. But cheaper if bought in large quantities I'm  sure. Then stainless stell hardware at home depot maybe $20 for my application. But the more u buy in bulk the more u save. Lol

If you plan on buying some cells in bulk let me know. Trying  to find a group buy. Save some mula, every lil bit counts. 

And thanx again.

 

[Boominburban]

Not much .... lol

You're thinking small. You need chargers/monitors, load testers, meters ect.. Drill press, band saws,drills and taps(and jigs, made for every configuration of battery you build, for drilling the holes) OR a CNC mill to make all the connecting bars/bussing in. Strong work benches that are non conductive (or mats for them that are non conductive).And all the power/hand tools required to do the job efficiently.

And 1/4" 6061 is on the small side, I generally use 3/8" and up for connectors, and much larger for bussing. 1-1/2" x 2", 1" x 3", 2" x 2-1/2", ect .... a 72" piece of those is generally $100 and up by itself. And that only makes one set of 36" buss bars. I'm building batteries for systems clamping 20k+, so running 2500+ amps through the buss bars.

And don't use stainless hardware, plain old zinc coated hardware is a better conductor. Make sure to use oxgard on all your connections.

I won't be doing anything soon. World Finals is in two days.

Get on FB, look up the DIY LTO lithium groups. Find Michael McCormick, he has a few cases of the pouch style LTO cells left . And Colin,( from Wolfram Audio) just helped organize a group buy for the same cells hispls is using. The supplier hispls is using has proven to be the best one to go through, as well, for that cell.The only one I would trust with my money

The cells hispls are using are much easier to build with than the pouched cells some of us are using. But, the pouched cells have been around for a decade + and are a proven cell. And we have been using them with great results in car audio for about a year now. People are just starting to test with these new cylinder type cells. Just do your research, and choose whats best for your needs.Build it correctly, don't try and cut corners to save a dime, and you will be very happy with your end product.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I won't be doing anything soon. World Finals is in two days.

Good luck!

Did a good bit of driving today.   Charging at 14.3-14.4 I haven't seen below 14.1 even after a couple full bass race songs to the point of hot cones.   Batteries recharge to 14.3-14.4 just about in the time it takes for the subs to cool down.  I really can't wait to try a second amp on these jokers.  I also need to get my alternator back to Nathan and get it switched to externally regulate so I can have some options there. 

I'm continuing to be impressed with these.   

Also up in Maine we usually start getting some snow by Halloween so I should be able to report a bit on cold weather performance pretty soon.

 

[L1ttlet]

Not much .... lol

You're thinking small. You need chargers/monitors, load testers, meters ect.. Drill press, band saws,drills and taps(and jigs, made for every configuration of battery you build, for drilling the holes) OR a CNC mill to make all the connecting bars/bussing in. Strong work benches that are non conductive (or mats for them that are non conductive).And all the power/hand tools required to do the job efficiently.

And 1/4" 6061 is on the small side, I generally use 3/8" and up for connectors, and much larger for bussing. 1-1/2" x 2", 1" x 3", 2" x 2-1/2", ect .... a 72" piece of those is generally $100 and up by itself. And that only makes one set of 36" buss bars. I'm building batteries for systems clamping 20k+, so running 2500+ amps through the buss bars.

And don't use stainless hardware, plain old zinc coated hardware is a better conductor. Make sure to use oxgard on all your connections.

I won't be doing anything soon. World Finals is in two days.

Get on FB, look up the DIY LTO lithium groups. Find Michael McCormick, he has a few cases of the pouch style LTO cells left . And Colin,( from Wolfram Audio) just helped organize a group buy for the same cells hispls is using. The supplier hispls is using has proven to be the best one to go through, as well, for that cell.The only one I would trust with my money

The cells hispls are using are much easier to build with than the pouched cells some of us are using. But, the pouched cells have been around for a decade + and are a proven cell. And we have been using them with great results in car audio for about a year now. People are just starting to test with these new cylinder type cells. Just do your research, and choose whats best for your needs.Build it correctly, don't try and cut corners to save a dime, and you will be very happy with your end product.

Ah thanx, I'll  be contacting Colin from wolfram.  Appreciate the additional info. I think my 1/4 thick bus bar for up to 500amps of current should do fine. Lol. Your running crazy amounts.  

 

[Boominburban]

Ah thanx, I'll  be contacting Colin from wolfram.  Appreciate the additional info. I think my 1/4 thick bus bar for up to 500amps of current should do fine. Lol. Your running crazy amounts.  

Just keep in mind, It will take a 1-1/2" x 1/2" buss rail to flow 525 amps with no drop. 1-1/2" x 1/4" is only good for half that. Unless you are using 3" wide bars, 1/4" just isn't going to cut it for your main buss bars.

 

[Boominburban]

Good luck!

Did a good bit of driving today.   Charging at 14.3-14.4 I haven't seen below 14.1 even after a couple full bass race songs to the point of hot cones.   Batteries recharge to 14.3-14.4 just about in the time it takes for the subs to cool down.  I really can't wait to try a second amp on these jokers.  I also need to get my alternator back to Nathan and get it switched to externally regulate so I can have some options there. 

I'm continuing to be impressed with these.   

Also up in Maine we usually start getting some snow by Halloween so I should be able to report a bit on cold weather performance pretty soon.

Thank you ! I have a good shot at a title, as I'm second loudest in the country in both of my classes.( as long as I can keep my windshield in it) OH, and MECA is doing World Championship rings this year!!

That is awesome!! Once you get them up around 15.2v, I think they will really shine. I know mine love 14.8 - 15.6v area. And let us know if these get stronger after a few cycles. Mine did.

Good luck on the cold weather performance. LTO is the best chemistry for that as well. I know the particular cells I am using are good down to -30deg Celsius, and still have a 15c rating there.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Thank you ! I have a good shot at a title, as I'm second loudest in the country in both of my classes.( as long as I can keep my windshield in it) OH, and MECA is doing World Championship rings this year!!

That is awesome!! Once you get them up around 15.2v, I think they will really shine. I know mine love 14.8 - 15.6v area. And let us know if these get stronger after a few cycles. Mine did.

Good luck on the cold weather performance. LTO is the best chemistry for that as well. I know the particular cells I am using are good down to -30deg Celsius, and still have a 15c rating there.

How far away are you from 1st?  

Alternator is internally regulated (I have no idea why Nathan did that).  I've seen 14.8 charging briefly here and there but normally it likes to charge 14.4.  If I externally regulate I'm going to 18 anyway.... why stop at 15?  My big amp makes crap loads of power at 18V and my 6 channel is regulated power supply so if I pull a terminal at 5S it'll still deliver full power. 

I'm so far from actually needing these to be "stronger" though.  Voltage barely moves with just 1 amp and the subs won't last even 30 seconds on 2.   I'll need to find a free week next year to tear down all my 15s build up 8 12s rebuild the baffle to fit those, then get the second amp in there. 

Unless you are using 3" wide bars,

You'll want 4" wide if you plan to have cells side by side.  These round cells are appx 2.5" diameter so 3" wide would be ugly.   Too narrow for 2 cells and too wide to mount cells next to each other without rows shorting.  I think 1.5" for a single row might be cutting it close really, you'll wind up wanting some wiggle room when you line them up most likely.

China sells some connecting hardware.  There's some copper straps that'll buss cell to cell and there's some pieces of inside threaded rod if you want to go end to end but you'll still need something for end caps on either side.  Both were kind of expensive but if you don't have time to cut and drill bar may be worth the extra money.

 

[L1ttlet]

So I  checked out those fb pages. Still waiting to be accepted for the diy lto group. So can't  get ahold of anyone there for group buys.  Hit up Colin and he does group buys every couple months.  22$ each cell plus shipping when cells get state side. Is that a good deal? I hit up KOK power limited and was quoted 324$ for 18 cells the (66160 lto cells, they just got in) plus 197$ shipping from China to door here in Texas. Not wanting to pay that kind of shipping. Just needing enough cells or even cells that boominburban has to make a 90ah-120ah battery bank. Y'all  know anybody that I  can group buy from soon?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

So I  checked out those fb pages. Still waiting to be accepted for the diy lto group. So can't  get ahold of anyone there for group buys.  Hit up Colin and he does group buys every couple months.  22$ each cell plus shipping when cells get state side. Is that a good deal? I hit up KOK power limited and was quoted 324$ for 18 cells the (66160 lto cells, they just got in) plus 197$ shipping from China to door here in Texas. Not wanting to pay that kind of shipping. Just needing enough cells or even cells that boominburban has to make a 90ah-120ah battery bank. Y'all  know anybody that I  can group buy from soon?

Kok power sells the connecting hardware but I shied away from dealing with them because they would not take credit card payments.   I was not going to send money to China with no buyer protection!  And western union or bank transfer adds some fees paid by the buyer.   They're probably legit and they were friendly enough (we even spoke on the phone), but I went with: https://baiguan-battery.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.8443308.0.0.63373e5fROL1Tc

As I said, I'll vouch for those guys.

If you want the hardware might just buy the lot from Kok and report back on how they do when all is said and done.

Looks like that quoted price is 28$ per cell delivered.  This is probably what you'll pay from anybody.  (yes the shipping really is that expensive).   Wolfram will probably need to collect about 3$ per cell to ship from him to you, so what's the difference?  3$ per cell?   Not that much in the grand scheme of this project.  The only real margin for savings is someone organizing a group buy who can pick up the cells right at the port.  As is these were delivered by UPS to me so you are paying twice for shipping after they hit the port in Oakland negating much of the savings you can get per unit by buying quantity.

IF you feel very brave I had one seller trying to offer me an even better price but they wanted to deal outside of Alibaba and western union or bank transfer only. 

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Finally managed to get .3 volts drop this weekend briefly playing hard at idle.  

Also it has been down to 30 degrees at night here over the weekend and there is no noticeable loss of performance with the cells.  I'll keep updating as it gets proper cold but any of you fellas that live down south should have absolutely no worries.

Got the bank almost mounted in my brother's Civic yesterday.    Need to go out and buy some bolts to get it grounded to the frame then a few hours to get the front battery gone and mount and connect the amp. 

 

[CRXBMPN 5,000+ posts]

here are some pics from when i went over to hispls house to help him get that battery box and bank installed two weekends ago.

 

[L1ttlet]

Builds look good. I'm  still trying to find a group buy for them cells. Tryed all of the one's  y'all mentioned and nothing yet.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Builds look good. I'm  still trying to find a group buy for them cells. Tryed all of the one's  y'all mentioned and nothing yet.

Last week was some sort of Chinese holiday I believe (saw a notice on USPS website). 

Again:  https://baiguan-battery.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.8443308.0.0.63373e5fROL1Tc

These guys did me right.  Not sure if they have a minimum quantity but I'd say don't get too hung up over a couple bucks per cell.  In the big scheme of things if 40$ difference on this project is going to break the bank for you, you probably shouldn't be buying car audio batteries in the first place.

Worthy of consideration is that batteries is one of the things being discussed for high tariffs so depending which way elections break in November, lithium may be 25-28% more expensive going into 2019.  Tariff talk has quieted down a bit, but who knows which way negotiations will go on that front?  Not sure if we even could make batteries here at home with EPA regulations and such, but it may be a longer term strategic goal to get some cutting edge technology in development here.  Energy storage is sort of important.

here are some pics

Thanks, man.  I always try to stop and take pics when I'm working but usually I get too focused on whatever project I'm into and don't take enough (or any). 

Got rid of those roosters yesterday, the neighbor took them up to the auction.  Dunno if he sold them or just left them there but it's a bit quieter here now.   You've got to pop by and check out these batteries in action at some point.  Could also use someone here to cut a piece of wood for the Civic.   After last year's injury I'm a bit shy about using chainsaw or potentially lethal tools without someone around.