internet brands - all they're hyped up to be?

[soundstreamer 10+ year member]

mainstream brands like kicker, memphis, jl, diamond, alpine, fosgate, eclipse, mtx, audiobahn, ect, all have their followers...and for a good reason: people have had good experiences with them. these people go out and pimp what they know will work. the one's who have had good experiences with online brands share their great experiences too...online...where you go to read about what's hot and try to mimic. not all setups are alike, therefore, you may have different results than you have read about with the exact same products.

and those w6s...go to local retailers and see what price they want for them. i had a local dealer sell me jl audio subs for less than i could find them anywhere online. it won't hurt to ask.

 

[SoundSplinter 10+ year member]

In general though, I think maybe I got fooled into thinking the mainstream stuff is crap, when alot of it is really good.
[...]

With the price per performance thing, I wonder, wouldn't a larger company be able to produce high featured woofers at a low cost? I would think the small companies would have problems with that.

[...]

I just seems like I can trust a larger company better, since they dont work out of their garage or whatever, and they dont need to rip people off.

There is no question that there are plenty of great products on the shelves at your local store as well as on the internet. I think the biggest drawback internet retailers face is that our potential customers cannot as easily demo our products and thus end up making their purchase on intuition and a conceptualized ideal of what the product will sound like. Of course, many people will embellish on the internet, and if they use a lot of charged words to present an opinion that sounds too good to be true, the potential buyer may end up buying into this personal opinion based on pure speculation, and ultimately be let down when they receive the actual product which cannot live up to these inflated expectations.
As for price versus performance. A larger company is definitely more able to produce high performance products at a lower cost simply because of the sheer volume in which they do business. Why the internet-based companies tend to offer more bang for the buck is not because our cost of goods sold is lower, but because 1) we do not necessarily have to support a dealer/retail markup and 2) we may accept a smaller profit margin in order to attract more business since we don't have the capital for a large-scale marketing scheme that a large company does. For example, a company like JL Audio may be getting their products of similar quality for a cheaper price point than I can get mine for, yet the price that the consumer sees is significantly higher than what I might offer my comparable product for. This happens because every comapny has to decide what type of profit margin they are aiming for on a given product. When a large manufacturer such as JL has decided on this, they need to then market the product at an even higher price point than they are looking for, because ultimately the product will go through a second markup so that the retailer can make their given profit margin on top of JL's margin.

Since many internet companies sell exclusively online direct to the consumer, this cuts out the need for the second markup that makes the end-retailer their money. Thus the price that the consumer sees from an internet company can be considerably lower than in a store, because it does not include the retailer's markup from the extra channel of distribution. Speaking personally, this is why you will probably never see my products in a physical store - not because they can't compare to what is out there, but because I cannot offer the monetary incentive for retailers to want to carry my products. Afterall, if I can only offer a $35 discount to a dealer, it is highly unlikely they would carry my products since they would want to make more than $35 per sale - and if they raised their sale price so that they could make their desired margin, they would probably lose a large portion of their customer base that realizes they can buy the same driver online, for less. Hence, a catch22.

Also, one should not assume that a large company will treat you better than a small one. I often find that smaller companies will do more for their customers since they only have a limited number of potential buyers, and thus need to concentrate on providing service that will make these potential buyers want to buy from them. Larger companies do not need to work as hard for each sale, since their name already has such strong brand-name recognition. One sale lost will not have a great effect on their overall profitability since their volume of sales is considerably higher to begin with. On top of this, large companies are often relying on their retailers to provide the direct-to-consumer customer service. Because of this delegation in responsibility, they may actually be less inclined to provide service to the customer directly since they assume their retailers will take care of it. Of course this is not always the case, but it can happen.

In short, buy from me //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

In general though, I think maybe I got fooled into thinking the mainstream stuff is crap, when alot of it is really good. I know lots of people that love eD, I personally am not to happy with them. My kv2 looked no better than anything else on the circuit city wall. My atlas is great, but once again, all of these subs seem to be copies of something else. Its like one company makes a sub, and 9 other companies slap their logos on them. With the price per performance thing, I wonder, wouldn't a larger company be able to produce high featured woofers at a low cost? I would think the small companies would have problems with that.
The followings of these internet companies are also wierd, and I find myself guilty of it sometimes too. But like eD, very odd, its like they have a gang of total ass kissers, and then others who are total anti's. I for one can't believe people can tolerate them, they edit out almost everything on icix, and close any and all threads that say something somewhat negative about an eD product, even if its asking for help (IE like my nine.2 that overheats every 20 sec.)

I just seems like I can trust a larger company better, since they dont work out of their garage or whatever, and they dont need to rip people off. Plus, the new type-r's look like they smoke everything else in their price range, name brand or not.

So you don't like the Kv.2 line. OK. Neither do I, really. Nor do I stick up for the actions of Milne & Co. Because honestly, I'd never do business with them again.

But my e12a.22 doesn't look like anything on a Circuit City wall...nor sound like one //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

In general though, I think maybe I got fooled into thinking the mainstream stuff is crap, when alot of it is really good. I know lots of people that love eD, I personally am not to happy with them. My kv2 looked no better than anything else on the circuit city wall. My atlas is great, but once again, all of these subs seem to be copies of something else.

I don't know how close the Kv2 is to any of the ID's products....but I'd venture to say that those two subs you mentioned are probably some of the least "copied". In the case of the Atlas, I don't know of any other XBL^2 enabled drivers at that price point. I honestly don't believe it has a clone/copy out there anywhere.

But, once again....it falls into application. I don't know how you used them (and don't really care, frankly), just remember that a products quality doesn't stop with itself. If you didn't use it to it's fullest potential, it's not the products fault.

Not saying you used it wrong per say. I don't know you from Joe Blow. Just something to think about. Or maybe you just expected them to blow mainstream stuff out of the water? Too high of expectations. Which...frankly, most mainstream stuff is quality equipment. There's a reason their sales are high, and it's not because it's crap. Most mainstream stuff is quality equipment. But, *in general*, these "internet brands" will perform as well as the mainstream stuff that's in a higher price bracket, which is where their strength lies.

I just seems like I can trust a larger company better, since they dont work out of their garage or whatever, and they dont need to rip people off.

In general most internet-based companies aren't here to rip you off. But their operations, I think, are a little more *known* to the consumer base because they have a more intimate relationship with their customers. I'm sure companies like Alpine or Pioneer have done something to one particular customer here and there that would appal most people....but you never hear of these cases because the customer-business relationship isn't as intimate or as voiced to the car audio community.

But you do need to be careful of the "fly by night" start up internet companies. Come and go quickly. Onyx for example seemed to come and go pretty **** quickly. Good products from what I hear......just didn't last long.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Entasi Audio was another...excellent drivers, never made it to the final production stage //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

Entasi Audio was another...excellent drivers, never made it to the final production stage //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

*cough* copies *cough*

NG

 

[6spdcoupe 5,000+ posts]

There is no question that there are plenty of great products on the shelves at your local store as well as on the internet. I think the biggest drawback internet retailers face is that our potential customers cannot as easily demo our products and thus end up making their purchase on intuition and a conceptualized ideal of what the product will sound like. Of course, many people will embellish on the internet, and if they use a lot of charged words to present an opinion that sounds too good to be true, the potential buyer may end up buying into this personal opinion based on pure speculation, and ultimately be let down when they receive the actual product which cannot live up to these inflated expectations.
As for price versus performance. A larger company is definitely more able to produce high performance products at a lower cost simply because of the sheer volume in which they do business. Why the internet-based companies tend to offer more bang for the buck is not because our cost of goods sold is lower, but because 1) we do not necessarily have to support a dealer/retail markup and 2) we may accept a smaller profit margin in order to attract more business since we don't have the capital for a large-scale marketing scheme that a large company does. For example, a company like JL Audio may be getting their products of similar quality for a cheaper price point than I can get mine for, yet the price that the consumer sees is significantly higher than what I might offer my comparable product for. This happens because every comapny has to decide what type of profit margin they are aiming for on a given product. When a large manufacturer such as JL has decided on this, they need to then market the product at an even higher price point than they are looking for, because ultimately the product will go through a second markup so that the retailer can make their given profit margin on top of JL's margin.

Since many internet companies sell exclusively online direct to the consumer, this cuts out the need for the second markup that makes the end-retailer their money. Thus the price that the consumer sees from an internet company can be considerably lower than in a store, because it does not include the retailer's markup from the extra channel of distribution. Speaking personally, this is why you will probably never see my products in a physical store - not because they can't compare to what is out there, but because I cannot offer the monetary incentive for retailers to want to carry my products. Afterall, if I can only offer a $35 discount to a dealer, it is highly unlikely they would carry my products since they would want to make more than $35 per sale - and if they raised their sale price so that they could make their desired margin, they would probably lose a large portion of their customer base that realizes they can buy the same driver online, for less. Hence, a catch22.

Also, one should not assume that a large company will treat you better than a small one. I often find that smaller companies will do more for their customers since they only have a limited number of potential buyers, and thus need to concentrate on providing service that will make these potential buyers want to buy from them. Larger companies do not need to work as hard for each sale, since their name already has such strong brand-name recognition. One sale lost will not have a great effect on their overall profitability since their volume of sales is considerably higher to begin with. On top of this, large companies are often relying on their retailers to provide the direct-to-consumer customer service. Because of this delegation in responsibility, they may actually be less inclined to provide service to the customer directly since they assume their retailers will take care of it. Of course this is not always the case, but it can happen.

In short, buy from me //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Very well put Mike. Especially the last paragraph. Typically the smaller companies will accomidate your needs and be more responsive to your problems as they Need to in order to stay in business. Larger comapnies have dealers to do the sales and advertising work for them. Hence the ability to mark products up for substantial amounts of money.

Case in point..in the two years that Ive dealt with Arc so far they have bent over backwards to help me in everyway they could, including, but not limited to next day airing products to me at their expense. This is a rarety among larger companies and I havent had one so easy to deal with in all of my years in business. Eclipse on the other hand despite the fact that Im doing 45+K a year with them, is still behind on everything. Not praising one, or bashing the other, just setting an example of how it is.

 

[iceteebone 5,000+ posts]

mainstreem companies aren't bad. i actually like the jl w6v2's but i choose not to buy them because they cost too much and i got the same performance, if not better out of the rl-p's. plus imo soundsplinter is one of the best companies to deal with. have you seen jl, rockford, alpine, pioneer, mtx, etc chime in in this thread?

 

[fancynapkin 10+ year member]

I guess what I meant about a larger company being able to help the customers more was that if you buy a sub from a local shop, if it breaks or its not what you want, you can go back to the shop and deal with it, rather than getting caught up in shipping and emailing etc. And also, I have heard stories of people buying woofers from a company online, and then have the company die after a month, and now they're stuck with no support.

I used eD as an example because they are really poor buisness people imo. I know their subs arent copies, but apparently the amps are just rehashed hifonics and kickers. They are extremely anal about people saying negative things about them, and refuse to take fualt for anything. Anyways, Im done with them so it doesnt really matter.

 

[iceteebone 5,000+ posts]

I guess what I meant about a larger company being able to help the customers more was that if you buy a sub from a local shop, if it breaks or its not what you want, you can go back to the shop and deal with it, rather than getting caught up in shipping and emailing etc. And also, I have heard stories of people buying woofers from a company online, and then have the company die after a month, and now they're stuck with no support.I used eD as an example because they are really poor buisness people imo. I know their subs arent copies, but apparently the amps are just rehashed hifonics and kickers. They are extremely anal about people saying negative things about them, and refuse to take fualt for anything. Anyways, Im done with them so it doesnt really matter.

alot of people will agree with you that ben is an ******* and ED is not a good place to do business with. that doesn't mean you condem all the internet companies. how many of these large companies have an internet forum where you can ask your questions about there products, and get answers from the owner?

 

[fancynapkin 10+ year member]

alot of people will agree with you that ben is an ******* and ED is not a good place to do business with. that doesn't mean you condem all the internet companies. how many of these large companies have an internet forum where you can ask your questions about there products, and get answers from the owner?

I can go to the retail shop and have someone look at it. I think that beats asking the owner over the internet, as nice and informative as they may be.

 

[iceteebone 5,000+ posts]

I can go to the retail shop and have someone look at it. I think that beats asking the owner over the internet, as nice and informative as they may be.

how can you trust a shop owner? a shop owner here told me i could send 1000 watts to a w3. he didn't even know what type of enclosure to use. if you are looking for someone else to do your install then you are probably better off with mainstreem. it also seems to me that you are forming your opinion based on ED which has had mixed reviews to begin with. so before you say internet companies are no good, maybe you should try soundsplinter, RE, adire, stereo integrity, incriminator audio, etc.

 

[JLCivic 10+ year member]

alot of people will agree with you that ben is an ******* and ED is not a good place to do business with. that doesn't mean you condem all the internet companies. how many of these large companies have an internet forum where you can ask your questions about there products, and get answers from the owner?

Not many, but honestly, why does that matter if you can pick up a phone and call tech support for the company in the first place? That is not a knock on smaller companies at all, but getting an answer from the owner of the company doesn't mean the product is better than anything else. A phone call is always quicker than an email anyway.

Hell, Manville Smith of JL Audio is on a few forums and has answered emails/pms, and posts on the forums from time to time.

I have seen good posts about customer service of the smaller, net-based companies, and I have seen posts slamming them.

My first point is I don't want to NEED customer service as often as I see posts about CS. Also, for every post about quick customer service, there are people who "call for 2 weeks and there is no answer," or "I called and left 10 messages and nobody got back to me." The upside of small companies is more personal attention in many cases. The downside is slow response in some cases.

From what I have seen on the forums, many will say people just assume the mainstream stuff is better because they haven't heard of ED/RE/whoever. IMO, the exact opposite is true. The majority on the forums believe that some small sub company's $200 woofer must automatically be compared to a $500 JL woofer. Maybe it is as good, maybe it is not(hell, maybe it is better), but many have the perception that just because some very small(in comparison) company sells it, it MUST be the equivalent of a mainstream brand that may cost more.

 

[JLCivic 10+ year member]

how can you trust a shop owner? a shop owner here told me i could send 1000 watts to a w3. he didn't even know what type of enclosure to use. if you are looking for someone else to do your install then you are probably better off with mainstreem. it also seems to me that you are forming your opinion based on ED which has had mixed reviews to begin with. so before you say internet companies are no good, maybe you should try soundsplinter, RE, adire, stereo integrity, incriminator audio, etc.

There are 15 year old kids on the forums buying the net based stuff as their first subs. That doesn't mean they have any clue about how to hook things up.

Small net based companies may have done things as well to shake the "trust" of some people as well.

 

[iceteebone 5,000+ posts]

There are 15 year old kids on the forums buying the net based stuff as their first subs. That doesn't mean they have any clue about how to hook things up.
Small net based companies may have done things as well to shake the "trust" of some people as well.

they is their fault for not learning how to install properly and diving into a subwoofer. we still haven't heard from the original poster more details about his install. he is also dealing with the entry level products from these companies.