Im thinking of trading my JL Audio for these ... what do you think?

[r0llinlacs 10+ year member]

Lmao. Yep. Totally nailed it hahaha

Whatever idiot. Can't argue with stupid. I suppose every car is the same and every sub sounds the same everywhere because acoustics don't exist in your tiny little mind. Get lost moron, please don't reply.

 

[av83 10+ year member]

I suppose every car is the same and every sub sounds the same everywhere because acoustics don't exist in your tiny little mind.

well duh.... car is car is car, right????

 

[CSCStang]

[quote name='mrpep']So I called JL and they told me that they could not give me the cubic feet and that they do not recommend a 1.5 box. They told me that because I have a larger car now ( my van) I have more air space to fill so they would recommend more power / a second woofer. This would increase the db and fill the lack that I am missing. Kind of makes sense.[/QUOTE]

; @hone. I just built one a 1.5 net and it slams so I'm not sure what they are talking about. It's in an suv.

 

[hone]

[quote name='CSCStang']; @hone. I just built one a 1.5 net and it slams so I'm not sure what they are talking about. It's in an suv.[/QUOTE]
Well a wagon but the cargo space is about the same as an suv 98 v70r volvo. It definitely gets loud.
I had a 1.25 net 35hz enclosure it also did pretty good in. I preferred both over the HO box. The HO box has really good output for its size though.

I'm running it off a xd1000/1v2 so I have a little more than rated going to it as well.

Cscstang did an excellent job on the box.

 

[mrpep]

They're telling me that because I have so much air space I want to smaller like .9 cf. I have one guy who is designing me a box - can't wait to see what that looks like- this is a JL audio tech designing it - I will post what he sends me - I still feel like a 1000 rms 15" should do better than a 600 rms w6v3 but many are saying it's all in the box so since it is the cheapest route I think I will give it a shot .

 

[hone]

Output wise they did well on the HO box. Going to a custom box will get you a slight gain in loudness but you could tune it to play lower.

 

[blazian87 10+ year member]

They're telling me that because I have so much air space I want to smaller like .9 cf. I have one guy who is designing me a box - can't wait to see what that looks like- this is a JL audio tech designing it - I will post what he sends me - I still feel like a 1000 rms 15" should do better than a 600 rms w6v3 but many are saying it's all in the box so since it is the cheapest route I think I will give it a shot .

yes it's all in the box. obviously a 15" with 1000w will be louder than a 10w6v3 on 600w but you keep saying you want more lows and depth, then go with a bigger box and tune in the low 30's. go with 1.5 net like previously suggested. if you go with a 15", then you're gonna need to take up way more space to get them lows. if space is not a concern, sell that w6 and go with a 15! Otherwise proceed with the custom box and it should get you what you want.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

[quote name='av83']Trunk gain/vehicle gain/cabin gain. ....all misnomers. There are frequencies that reach the mic or ear with less cancellation, but none are technically amplified to a higher volume due to passing through the car...[/QUOTE]

[quote name='r0llinlacs']So according to what you say, a box doesn't amplify the sound, it just makes frequencies reach the ear with less cancellation. Lol. A cabin/trunk is essentially a box. Boxes cause gain. Cabins cause gain. Trunks cause gain. There is no debating that, the only differences are the shape and size of the cabin/trunk which results in different acoustical tuning per vehicle, just like a tuned box, a cabin/trunk has a tuning frequency as well. Cabin gain/trunk gain are most certainly NOT misnomers. It's reality and it's what makes every car different.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='av83']I learned this from @keep_hope_alive ;You can argue with him if you really want to look bad...

The flaw in your reasoning is so blatantly obvious i feel bad for you lol.[/QUOTE]

i felt my ears burning. i'm not being quoted correctly. i mostly talk in terms of phase interference as it relates to SPL in a car. i talk about measurements varying with frequency due to the result of constructive or destructive phase interference.

hold a sub in your hand, in the middle of an open field, and measure the output. that would be free-field response with the woofer in free air. front and rear waves would mostly cancel and you wouldn't measure much output.

same sub, same power, same field, but put the sub in a variety boxes and you'll measure a variety of SPL that vary based on the enclosure design. the enclosure may isolate the front and rear wave, may take advantage of acoustic resonance, may affect efficiency, may affect the polar response, and any combination of those (and others).

same sub, same power, but now put the sub/enclosure on the ground and you gain 3dB. put the sub/enclosure against a wall on the ground and you gain another 3dB. but the sub/enclosure in a corner on the ground and you gain another 3dB. simply put, each reflecting plane creates a coherent reflection that is in-phase with the original. 100dB + 100dB is 103dB. it's logarithmic math.

same sub, same power, put the enclosure(s) in an enclosed space. you now introduce room acoustics and phase interference due to reflections and pressure relationships. reflections will cause huge swings in response due to geometric relationships between the enclosure, the walls of the cabin, and the measurement location. put a mic in a kick or corner and you measure less interference (hence the higher score).

another factor to consider is that a trunk is small enough to turn a sealed box in to a useful 4th order bandpass and a vented box into a 6th order bandpass. open your windows and you introduced another bandpass factor.

trunks can do pretty well with a lucky combination of enclosure and airspace due to the combined response. we call it "cabin gain" but it's not an accurate representation of what's actually happening. it's a dumbed-down term. we're measuring phase interference that varies with frequency and mic placement due to classical room acoustics. with low enough frequencies, we are mostly dealing with pressure relationships which again make the combined system (sub, enclosure, cabin) act like higher-order bandpass enclosures.

can single subs be impressive? of course they can. properly placed, they can take advantage of phase interference. most of the systems i've done are single sub setups and that includes trunks, hatches, wagons, SUVs, and vans. 140+ is very attainable.

are the old audio control mics inaccurate? yes they are. a traditional mic cannot handle higher SPL accurately, which is why the industry moved away from them. I don't trust any diaphragm mic above 130dB SPL re 20uPa. they tend to provide higher than actual measurements due to the physical limitations of a diaphragm.

 

[av83 10+ year member]

There's so much great info in there that I could care less that he's probably telling me, in the nicest way possible, that I'm at least a little wrong lol. Thanks man.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

There's so much great info in there that I could care less that he's probably telling me, in the nicest way possible, that I'm at least a little wrong lol. Thanks man.

no worry, man. thanks for the mention.

 

[av83 10+ year member]

no worry, man. thanks for the mention.

My front doors freak people (and still myself from time to time) out because of you lol. ...and I have cheap pa in there. You're definitely my go to on anything regarding acoustical response in any way.

 

[r0llinlacs 10+ year member]

i felt my ears burning. i'm not being quoted correctly. i mostly talk in terms of phase interference as it relates to SPL in a car. i talk about measurements varying with frequency due to the result of constructive or destructive phase interference.
hold a sub in your hand, in the middle of an open field, and measure the output. that would be free-field response with the woofer in free air. front and rear waves would mostly cancel and you wouldn't measure much output.

same sub, same power, same field, but put the sub in a variety boxes and you'll measure a variety of SPL that vary based on the enclosure design. the enclosure may isolate the front and rear wave, may take advantage of acoustic resonance, may affect efficiency, may affect the polar response, and any combination of those (and others).

same sub, same power, but now put the sub/enclosure on the ground and you gain 3dB. put the sub/enclosure against a wall on the ground and you gain another 3dB. but the sub/enclosure in a corner on the ground and you gain another 3dB. simply put, each reflecting plane creates a coherent reflection that is in-phase with the original. 100dB + 100dB is 103dB. it's logarithmic math.

same sub, same power, put the enclosure(s) in an enclosed space. you now introduce room acoustics and phase interference due to reflections and pressure relationships. reflections will cause huge swings in response due to geometric relationships between the enclosure, the walls of the cabin, and the measurement location. put a mic in a kick or corner and you measure less interference (hence the higher score).

another factor to consider is that a trunk is small enough to turn a sealed box in to a useful 4th order bandpass and a vented box into a 6th order bandpass. open your windows and you introduced another bandpass factor.

trunks can do pretty well with a lucky combination of enclosure and airspace due to the combined response. we call it "cabin gain" but it's not an accurate representation of what's actually happening. it's a dumbed-down term. we're measuring phase interference that varies with frequency and mic placement due to classical room acoustics. with low enough frequencies, we are mostly dealing with pressure relationships which again make the combined system (sub, enclosure, cabin) act like higher-order bandpass enclosures.

can single subs be impressive? of course they can. properly placed, they can take advantage of phase interference. most of the systems i've done are single sub setups and that includes trunks, hatches, wagons, SUVs, and vans. 140+ is very attainable.

are the old audio control mics inaccurate? yes they are. a traditional mic cannot handle higher SPL accurately, which is why the industry moved away from them. I don't trust any diaphragm mic above 130dB SPL re 20uPa. they tend to provide higher than actual measurements due to the physical limitations of a diaphragm.

Thank god, some actual knowledge. I don't want to be arrogant to people but you have to fight fire with fire. Acoustics are different everywhere (every living and non-living object has a resonant frequency, and they're all different) and there are so many variables that nothing is 100% certain, even air temperature and humidity can affect acoustics. But, you still say it's not "amplification" or "gain" because it's "technically" phase interference/cancelling waves/stacking waves but, there is no debate that it's not something to be taken advantage of (just tuning boxes takes advantage of those physics and acoustics) and that is "technically" the definition of gain and amplification. More DB = gain/amplification, no matter if you get it through tuning/acoustics, power amplification, more subs, better wire, etc. etc. it all ends up being louder and that is the definition of gain/amplification and it's what makes dB. Trunk gain and cabin gain are real things and they can be taken advantage of. It creates stacking waves which = more db and it's what made subs in cars popular from the beginning, because it's louder than a big open space like a house or outdoors because of the acoustics of the combination of vehicle/sub/box/power.

another factor to consider is that a trunk is small enough to turn a sealed box in to a useful 4th order bandpass and a vented box into a 6th order bandpass. open your windows and you introduced another bandpass factor.

100%! In my car, that was the exact effect. Already loud because of the small trunk, the big center console that flipped down, and the vents in the rear deck, and when I rolled the front windows down on top of it, I gained at least 2db and frequency response dropped, it hit all the way down to as low you can hear (but only the front windows, if I rolled the back windows down dB went back down) and **** right I had the front windows rolled down during the meter video cause that was the loudest. Now I have these Eclipse subs, I had them in my car before I sold it and they beat the **** out of that car, now I got my SUV and the acoustics are 100% different from the car. It's a given, it shouldn't even really need explaining but the SUV sounds like exactly what it is, a big box. The cabin tuning is higher because it's so large and it's louder with the windows up with the same subs/boxes/amp. It doesn't dig as low as the car and my 28hz tuned boxes sound like they're tuned at 40hz when in the car you **** near had to plug your ears at 28hz. Don't get me wrong, because 28hz range in the SUV gives crazy roof flex but the sound isn't there like it was in the car. The moral of the story is every vehicle is different. What's loud in one car isn't going to sound the same in a different car. That's all I wanted to get across but some people don't listen.

same sub, same power, but now put the sub/enclosure on the ground and you gain 3dB. put the sub/enclosure against a wall on the ground and you gain another 3dB. but the sub/enclosure in a corner on the ground and you gain another 3dB. simply put, each reflecting plane creates a coherent reflection that is in-phase with the original. 100dB + 100dB is 103dB. it's logarithmic math.

Which is exactly why I always fire my subs and ports towards the rear if you're doing a boxed build vs. a walled build especially in trunk cars... it reflects and creates stacking waves at the front of the vehicle = more dB. I try to explain to anybody and everybody but nobody understands it and how it can be an advantage. Nobody takes the acoustics of different vehicles into account or to advantage. You have to design the system around the vehicle. It's the same way with home theater and the same way with sound anywhere, you experiment and design the system around the environment, otherwise you'd have korn concerts at the Nurburgring with a few sony boomboxes distorting to the crowd, and you also design the system with proper power, because the boxes are tuned to the xmax of the driver, so if you don't have enough power to reach the xmax of the driver, the tuned box is useless.

But also, if anybody cares what a true basshead since age 12 has to say, since I'm not all that pleased with how the SUV hits low notes and since I have the space, I think I'm just going to go all out and build a T-line tuned at the Eclipse's Fs 24hz. It'll be ******* huge but I don't care because it should be even sounding, hit low and be loud. I'm not sure how even it'll be with the SUV's acoustics but experimenting is all part of the game and it should probably sound louder and more even than what I have. One crappy old 12" 400w (more like 300w) Kenwood in my home theater 29hz T-line box all out kills one of the Eclipse on a full 500rms in one of the 28hz tuned boxes in the house on frequency response and especially hitting the lows, so we'll see how a 24hz T-line with two 8122 12" on 1000rms turns out in the SUV.

But another thing worth debating is 100db+100db = 103db because I've always heard that the doubling of an audible increase of sound is equal to 2db which would be 102db and also why some high end home receivers volume go in 2dB increments.

 

[av83 10+ year member]

Thank god, some actual knowledge. I don't want to be arrogant to people but you have to fight fire with fire. Acoustics are different everywhere (every living and non-living object has a resonant frequency, and they're all different) and there are so many variables that nothing is 100% certain, even air temperature and humidity can affect acoustics. But, you still say it's not "amplification" or "gain" because it's "technically" phase interference/cancelling waves/stacking waves but, there is no debate that it's not something to be taken advantage of (just tuning boxes takes advantage of those physics and acoustics) and that is "technically" the definition of gain and amplification. More DB = gain/amplification, no matter if you get it through tuning/acoustics, power amplification, more subs, better wire, etc. etc. it all ends up being louder and that is the definition of gain/amplification and it's what makes dB. Trunk gain and cabin gain are real things and they can be taken advantage of. It creates stacking waves which = more db and it's what made subs in cars popular from the beginning, because it's louder than a big open space like a house or outdoors because of the acoustics of the combination of vehicle/sub/box/power.




100%! In my car, that was the exact effect. Already loud because of the small trunk, the big center console that flipped down, and the vents in the rear deck, and when I rolled the front windows down on top of it, I gained at least 2db and frequency response dropped, it hit all the way down to as low you can hear (but only the front windows, if I rolled the back windows down dB went back down) and **** right I had the front windows rolled down during the meter video cause that was the loudest. Now I have these Eclipse subs, I had them in my car before I sold it and they beat the **** out of that car, now I got my SUV and the acoustics are 100% different from the car. It's a given, it shouldn't even really need explaining but the SUV sounds like exactly what it is, a big box. The cabin tuning is higher because it's so large and it's louder with the windows up with the same subs/boxes/amp. It doesn't dig as low as the car and my 28hz tuned boxes sound like they're tuned at 40hz when in the car you **** near had to plug your ears at 28hz. Don't get me wrong, because 28hz range in the SUV gives crazy roof flex but the sound isn't there like it was in the car. The moral of the story is every vehicle is different. What's loud in one car isn't going to sound the same in a different car. That's all I wanted to get across but some people don't listen.

Which is exactly why I always fire my subs and ports towards the rear if you're doing a boxed build vs. a walled build especially in trunk cars... it reflects and creates stacking waves at the front of the vehicle = more dB. I try to explain to anybody and everybody but nobody understands it and how it can be an advantage. Nobody takes the acoustics of different vehicles into account or to advantage. You have to design the system around the vehicle. It's the same way with home theater and the same way with sound anywhere, you experiment and design the system around the environment, otherwise you'd have korn concerts at the Nurburgring with a few sony boomboxes distorting to the crowd, and you also design the system with proper power, because the boxes are tuned to the xmax of the driver, so if you don't have enough power to reach the xmax of the driver, the tuned box is useless.

But also, if anybody cares what a true basshead since age 12 has to say, since I'm not all that pleased with how the SUV hits low notes and since I have the space, I think I'm just going to go all out and build a T-line tuned at the Eclipse's Fs 24hz. It'll be ******* huge but I don't care because it should be even sounding, hit low and be loud. I'm not sure how even it'll be with the SUV's acoustics but experimenting is all part of the game and it should probably sound louder and more even than what I have. One crappy old 12" 400w (more like 300w) Kenwood in my home theater 29hz T-line box all out kills one of the Eclipse on a full 500rms in one of the 28hz tuned boxes in the house on frequency response and especially hitting the lows, so we'll see how a 24hz T-line with two 8122 12" on 1000rms turns out in the SUV.

But another thing worth debating is 100db+100db = 103db because I've always heard that the doubling of an audible increase of sound is equal to 2db which would be 102db and also why some high end home receivers volume go in 2dB increments.

Although i love the effort you put into your sig he was obviously saying you were a least a lil wrong too lol. idk why you bothered with the single sub effectiveness quote myself though since i've only had about 20 of them and know theyre usually the most efficient use of space and power ... stay classy bro lmao.

btw.... you're coming off very badly as a guy that honestly believes he knows way more than he actually knows... and it's cracking all of us up. But we appreciate the lol's for sure!

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Although i love the effort you put into your sig he was obviously saying you were a least a lil wrong too lol. idk why you bothered with the single sub effectiveness quote myself though since i've only had about 20 of them and know theyre usually the most efficient use of space and power ... stay classy bro lmao.
btw.... you're coming off very badly as a guy that honestly believes he knows way more than he actually knows... and it's cracking all of us up. But we appreciate the lol's for sure!

Don't waste your time. Dude is a moron.

 

[av83 10+ year member]

Don't waste your time. Dude is a moron.

Slow day at work lol