How Many of You Are SAVED?

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Play with me for a moment.......assuming there is no god and the Bible isn't accurate, and it is through "the power of suggestion", the Bible could be that evidence.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but that is not the kind of evidence I mean.

If I had convinced myself their was a God for my own sanity, or any other coping mechanism, then it might satiate me for awhile. But if I prayed and didn't see consistnet answers to my prayers I'd begin to wonder, doubt. If I read the "Word" that was attributed to the God I believed in and it's teachings didn't amount to any more then shallow rhetoric or philosophy that talks itself in circles, instead of principles I could make life altering decisions on... If I stepped out in faith on any one of the promises God makes in the Bible and didn't see Him consistently meet me in that need, against all odds, naturally and supernaturally so, then don't you think my falicy would eventually fall apart?

There is a lot of good feeling, self comforting, reasonable sounding "belief" out there, including the naturalism you are touting, but Jesus Christ is the only one who has proved Himself to be real to me when the rubber meets the road.

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

wow, I enjoy hearing opinions for actual educated believers as opposed to simple zealots.
I do have some difficulty believing that 1) Jesus was the son of a God and 2) the bible is the word of that God.

It does not seem fair to me to say that Jesus died for us and that we should worship him, where countless others have sacrificed their lives for humanity in similar fashion.

Jesus was a very influential man indeed- he brought religion to EVERYONE, away from the original faith that stated only the chosen could be saved. It is easy to see how someone like this could be deified after his death.

Well thought out post. I too enjoy respectful discussion, particularly with some one who has looked into things a bit. On to your comments.

Many have had trouble with this, including myself at one time. It just struck me as arrogant to say someone is deserving of worship. That however was before I really sought to get to know Jesus. I began touching on this about page 15 (or so) of this thread. Jesus did and is much more than a person who died for us. He was the only one who could pay the debt that we owed. I could go on with His endless credentials, but I'll let you review some of the my previous posts for that. What I can say is, since I started believing the Bible as thee only true God's word, especially when standing on it's promises though it made no natural sense whatsoever, I have seen miraculous things happen in my life. Since I started taking time each day to talk to God, study His word and apply what I've learned I have found a leader and friend that has never let me down, been faithful even when I wasn't and a love that is so far beyond compare there are no words for it. These were the things that clenched it for me, but I didn't see most of them until after I had taken the step of faith to trust and believe. As a note, it wasn't blind faith, I studied the Bible's credibility first, but in the end I had to decide to believe it as more the just authentic history.

Here is where I stand personally- if there is a God, I am him. And so are you. The true meaning of that can even be taken loosely from the religion, that states everyone has a personal connection with God. What happened to you, through whatever catalyst you choose (be it religion, meditation, whatever), is a connection with your own greater self. I also am a believer in relativism- that is that there is no objective truth. That what is right and what is wrong are actually equal and opposite - their interpretation is relative. This is another reason I cannot believe in a high power that is 'all good' or 'right.'
>

Opening your heart to Christ and letting him in... perhaps that is actually just a vehicle to opening yourself. I agree with what you say about a hole inside of us. I believe that all humans have huge potential, and many never realize it. I also believe that the feeling of religious experience is a true and valid feeling, but dont believe that it is neccessarily an outside source, but in many cases an outside stimulus.

What do you think on this?

My thoughts are that I have seen and heard this perspective in many different forms, it is present all through history. Man has been trying to make a god out of himself since the serpant told Eve "you will be like God." //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif The New Age movement is just the latest face on this...well, lie, not to put too fine a point on it. The problem is this theory seeks to remove all absolutes and that is not possible. Everything around us has "givens," absolutes that are the foundation of all we know. Without them, there are no foundations, no boundaries, no reference point by which we can measure or build anything. What seems reasonable to begin with eventually becomes a sea of chaos. A lack of order. Relativity is a shifting sand that destroys all that is constructed on it.

Do you enjoy reading fiction? There is an old book, a best seller called "Piercing The Darkness" by Frank Peretti. It is an action packed story that deals with this subject and the supernatural in a thought provoking way. Even without the provocative it is an enjoyable read.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing more from you. For the moment, it's WEEEELL past my bedtime! 5 a.m. comes too soon! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Did they win an Academy Award for the performances??
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

:goodorbad

LOL! Well, there are a multitude of people who have attended my church at one point or another who have experienced healing from everything from headaches to cancer and AIDs. Our Pastor has a stack of medical files containing x-rays, test results, Dr's reports, etc. to prove it. One of them is his wife's. She was given 6 months to live with terminal cancer when she was pregnant with their oldest. Their oldest is now graduated and the Pastor has shown us the before and after x-ray's. Laugh if you want, but this is just one, and not even the most dramatic example.

I've know of a 13 year old girl who threw a Pastor 20 feet across a room with one arm because of the demon inside of her (she had been involved in witchcraft) with several witnesses. I've personally witnessed similar things.

I know of both drug and alcohol addicts who had been for over a decade who were delivered instantly without withdraws or any other medically proven symptom associated with quitting cold turkey. I know of marriages of people who hated each other, had cheated repeatedly, yet were turned around so that you wouldn't recognize them. I could go on and on. Call it what you will, but it's a phenomenon that is awfully concentrated around various bodies of Christian believers to be written off as coincidence.

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

No thoughts? Replies? Analogies? Quanundrums? Easy recipes?

 

[Acidburn 5,000+ posts]

hey Frraksurred, i've got a question, and you seem to be the one to ask

what is the Bibles stance on *******?

a girl from my school killed herself last sunday and i was wondering just what the religions say on the subject?

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

hey Frraksurred, i've got a question, and you seem to be the one to askwhat is the Bibles stance on *******?

a girl from my school killed herself last sunday and i was wondering just what the religions say on the subject?

Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that. I buried a good friend years back who took his life after years of problems. It was a painful and sobering event. My condolences, whether she was friend or acquaintance.

The Bible never directly addresses *******, but it does indirectly. Because life is a gift from God, taking it is equated with murder. In short it is considered wrong. We didn't play any role in gaining life. Parents often refer to it as a miracle because their only role in creating it was the fun part; //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif the rest is out of their hands. Having said that, it is also something that is forgiveable.

******* itself does not send a person to hell or heaven, that is determined by our relationship with God and if we have sought Him for forgiveness. Only He knows the heart of a person; what is sincere and what is fake...so only He can judge. In any regard, my prayers are with her family and friends. All of us deal with hurts in this life, some more so then others. Some take their hurts to a Doctor (Jesus Christ) and find gradual healing, some numb their hurts with anything and everything they can until they realize it is only making matters worse... then a person who was discouraged to begin with sees it all as insurmountable and decides the only remaining answer is to end it all. Undoubtedly the young lady you speak of had a great deal of potential. Though she may not have thought so, I'm sure she will be missed... maybe more by those who's lives would have been touched by knowing her, but now shall never be.

*Flag at half mast*

 

[Acidburn 5,000+ posts]

alrighty, that is basically what my friend who is way into Christianity said

personally, i found her to be annoying and an antention wh0re, so it didnt really bother me at all

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

personally, i found her to be annoying and an antention wh0re, so it didnt really bother me at all

Yea, I know people like that myself. What I've discovered is that those are just symptoms to deeper problems. Lack of attention at home, particularly from Dad..or the wrong kind of attention. Insecurity and a host of other things could have played a part. This is why the Bible teaches that "we do not war with flesh and blood," meaning our battle is not with the people around us, but more with the root of their problems. Spiritually speaking with Satan because it is his work and temptation that is what leads people into those problems.

We are all on this road of life. We can all look back at stupid things we did before we knew better and ask ourselves "what was I thinking!?!" We all have faults that annoy other people, that's just part of life and growth. She was on that road to, she just gave up too soon. What she needed was the right person to invest in her, rather then write her off on account of her flaws. Every diamond starts off as a pain in the...uh, neck. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

LOL! Well, there are a multitude of people who have attended my church at one point or another who have experienced healing from everything from headaches to cancer and AIDs. Our Pastor has a stack of medical files containing x-rays, test results, Dr's reports, etc. to prove it. One of them is his wife's. She was given 6 months to live with terminal cancer when she was pregnant with their oldest. Their oldest is now graduated and the Pastor has shown us the before and after x-ray's. Laugh if you want, but this is just one, and not even the most dramatic example.

If it were true, then why would it not happen everytime??

Take for example; my mom. Diagnosed with a very agressive cancer in March of '04. She is religious, my father is deeply religious, and her sister is a religious freak (no offense intended). She was on the prayer list at multiple churches, multiple people including herself prayed for recovery, surrounded herself with religious healing and spiritual literature, etc etc. She passed away in November of '04, a meer 8 months after being diagnosed, and in that time the doctors were hitting her with literally the strongest chemo available with today's technology, and her life still only lasted 8 months (the chemo barely even slowed the progression).

 

[Acidburn 5,000+ posts]

Yea, I know people like that myself. What I've discovered is that those are just symptoms to deeper problems. Lack of attention at home, particularly from Dad..or the wrong kind of attention. Insecurity and a host of other things could have played a part. This is why the Bible teaches that "we do not war with flesh and blood," meaning our battle is not with the people around us, but more with the root of their problems. Spiritually speaking with Satan because it is his work and temptation that is what leads people into those problems.
We are all on this road of life. We can all look back at stupid things we did before we knew better and ask ourselves "what was I thinking!?!" We all have faults that annoy other people, that's just part of life and growth. She was on that road to, she just gave up too soon. What she needed was the right person to invest in her, rather then write her off on account of her flaws. Every diamond starts off as a pain in the...uh, neck. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

you've heard my thoughts on parenting so you know i agree with you on the first stuff

the question is, if she had any real potential to offer to the world, wouldn't she have the common sense to not kill herself?

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

If it were true, then why would it not happen everytime??
Take for example; my mom. Diagnosed with a very agressive cancer in March of '04. She is religious, my father is deeply religious, and her sister is a religious freak (no offense intended). She was on the prayer list at multiple churches, multiple people including herself prayed for recovery, surrounded herself with religious healing and spiritual literature, etc etc. She passed away in November of '04, a meer 8 months after being diagnosed, and in that time the doctors were hitting her with literally the strongest chemo available with today's technology, and her life still only lasted 8 months (the chemo barely even slowed the progression).

Dude, I'm sorry to hear about your Mom. That must have been incredibly difficult. There is no perfect answer as to why some are healed and some are not, but there is some explanation.

First, in many cases there is something God is wanting to do in a person's character. Like working out to build muscle, God often uses difficult circumstances to teach valuable lessons, strengthen and grow character or open a person's eyes to something of much greater importance. Keep in mind, this life is just a drop in the bucket in comparison to eternity. Living your life in maximum comfort from beginning to end doesn't stimulate growth and it isn't God's primary objective for our lives. Our character and our contribution to life is. That doesn't mean He wants to make everything difficult and a test either, He delights in our happiness. But, think about it, every great athelete, businees person, or anyone of notable accomplishment usually has a story of how they faced some huge thing (or things) and had to choose how they were going to react to it before they became who they are today.

Second, in many cases it is better for the person to be moved from this life into the next. If your Mom had a relationship with Christ as it sounds like she did, then she is in a much better place! God taking her home may be painful for us because we miss the ones we love, but it was the absolute best thing for her! She endured great pain in her last months, but many have suffered much longer. God may have shortened her suffering by taking her so seemingly soon. Actually, God did more then just heal her, he made her more complete then she could have ever been on this earth. We only see things from our limited worldy perspective, but from God's perspective things are very different. God hurt, just like you hurt, to see your Mother suffering. If her work here was done, then it was better for her to go to home. The only thing that could make it better for her is if the one's she loves join her some day when it is their time. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

God doesn't always answer the way we think He should, but He always answers in love and in our best interests. He sees a much bigger picture then we do. When you lost your Mom it probably didn't feel like love to you, and I can see a little better now why you have the beef with God that you seem to, but you have to understand what He did was the best for her. He didn't leave you alone in those circumstances either. He was there for you even if you didn't turn to Him. He provided for you through the love and lives of others even if you never saw it that way before. He has answers for you even today, He also has healing for the hurt, no matter how old and buried... but you have to give Him a chance, because He will never force you. You can blame God, like many do, and spend your life in inner hateful misery, or you can let Him help you through it. Happiness never follows a grudge, but healing definately follows opening your heart to Christ. I'm a living example. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/veryhappy.gif.fec4fed33b4a1279cf10bdd45a039dae.gif

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

you've heard my thoughts on parenting so you know i agree with you on the first stuff
the question is, if she had any real potential to offer to the world, wouldn't she have the common sense to not kill herself?

It might seem like it to you and me, but to a person who developes of habit of focusing on the problems, on what's wrong, or particularly on personal flaws, the mind can become a person's own worst enemy. Depression muddies the mind like no other. If you add other things to this equation like alcohol or drugs then natural thought processes get replaced by very twisted ones. In the past I have had myself convinced that the greatest favor I could do the world was to leave it! I believed it because my focus was so inverted and so negative. Had I not had God in my life to remind me to be thankful for what I have, I would have never stopped to think about what all I have. After doing so I realized things were not nearly as bad as what my thoughts had spiraled downward to think they were.

 

[Acidburn 5,000+ posts]

It might seem like it to you and me, but to a person who developes of habit of focusing on the problems, on what's wrong, or particularly on personal flaws the mind can become a person's own worst enemy. Depression muddies the mind like no other. If you add other things to this equation like alcohol or drugs then natural thought processes get replaced by very twisted ones. In the past I have had myself convinced that the greatest favor I could do the world was to leave it! I believed it because my focus was so inverted and so negative. Had I not had God in my life to remind me to be thankful for what I have, I would have never stopped to think about what all I have. After doing so I realized things were not nearly as bad as what my thoughts had spiraled downward to think they were.

see, you eventually found a way out, she didnt

that means you are inherently better than she is in some way and therefore you have the potential to offer more

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

see, you eventually found a way out, she didntthat means you are inherently better than she is in some way and therefore you have the potential to offer more

I didn't find anything that she didn't also have access to. Rather, I choose not to give up and I actively refocused. These were options for her to.

The only reason I may have more to offer at this point is because of the decisions I made and my dedication to sticking to them. Had she choose hope and refocused, eventually she would have had just as much if not more to offer. I was never inherently better, I choose and actively applied to become better. Her only limit was her decisions.

 

[Acidburn 5,000+ posts]

yes, she had access to many things, but she did not use any of them

exactly, "her only limit was her decisions" she did not have the ability to make the correct one