Guitars sound harsh, likely culprit?

[2Wheelzgood]

So i recently had a local shop upgrade the audio on my honda accord, the problem is the tweeters sound harsh (at least i assume its the tweeters) especially guitars on rock and metal. it's worse obviously as the volume increases. its been back to the shop twice so i think at this point i need a new perspective.

my current set up is:
Factory Radio (no eq) bypassing factory amp to a Wavetech 2ch line driver feedings a Kenwood XR901-5 5ch amp, front/rear ch's bridged to JL Audio C3 components on axis and a boxed sub in the trunk. Rear speakers disconnected. Tweeters are in the factory sail panel location.

The JL x-overs are already set down to -4db so I'm suspecting that its not a db level thats causing the issue. The speakers were checked and are in phase (not sure about acoustical phase). The shop has suggested a sound processor but i don't think i should have to buy more gear just to get this set up listenable at volume. Maybe it needs sound deadening or a new tweeter angle or position? Is possible the tweeter could use more attenuation and needs a resistor?

Not sure if this is any help but I did compare the spectrum with an app comparing the same song on my home receiver 2.0 with the car 2.1 sound:

Account Suspended

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Thanks in advance for any ideas!s

Click to read more...

 

[bajbass]

well if u had any type of eq i would have told you cut the bands between 2k and 4k but since you dont try wiring the tweeters out of phase with the mids and see how it sounds...ps. i wouldnt trust that phone mic too much though but its better than nothing

 

[2Wheelzgood]

Ok thanks Bajbass, ill try switching the polarity on the tweeters

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

So i recently had a local shop upgrade the audio on my honda accord, the problem is the tweeters sound harsh (at least i assume its the tweeters) especially guitars on rock and metal. it's worse obviously as the volume increases. its been back to the shop twice so i think at this point i need a new perspective.

my current set up is:
Factory Radio (no eq) bypassing factory amp to a Wavetech 2ch line driver feedings a Kenwood XR901-5 5ch amp, front/rear ch's bridged to JL Audio C3 components on axis and a boxed sub in the trunk. Rear speakers disconnected. Tweeters are in the factory sail panel location.

The JL x-overs are already set down to -4db so I'm suspecting that its not a db level thats causing the issue. The speakers were checked and are in phase (not sure about acoustical phase). The shop has suggested a sound processor but i don't think i should have to buy more gear just to get this set up listenable at volume. Maybe it needs sound deadening or a new tweeter angle or position? Is possible the tweeter could use more attenuation and needs a resistor?

Not sure if this is any help but I did compare the spectrum with an app comparing the same song on my home receiver 2.0 with the car 2.1 sound:

Account Suspended

Account Suspended

Thanks in advance for any ideas!s

factory radio and LOC. Thats the problem right there. Everything wrong with the setup is that item alone. Stock decks have built in high pass crossovers and factory EQ curve no this is not something you can change its there even with all features off or neutral, its built in unchangeable tuning to make the stock factory speakers sound better than they should so the signal is completely whack and garbage. Now you have aftermarkets that require a flat signal, but you have an EQ curve tuned for your stock speakers, do you see the issue there?

Along with the stock head unit, you have no way to change the EQ along with the stock head unit having a crappy DAC so the signal quality is pretty crap from the start right off the bat and all you are doing is just amplifying that. You'll want a DSP that signal sums and then DE-Equalize and flatten the EQ curve coming in then allow you to tune the EQ, crossovers and time alignment to match your car's acoustics for proper sound quality.

Also you have a passive crossover on the JL components, thats like playing the lottery because you cannot change the crossover point and your vehicle acoustics may cause a natural spike in certain frequencies and the crossover point exacerbate those peaks making things sound horrible and not even a big EQ adjustment can help. If you get rid of the passive crossover and run active, you can use crossover points to tame those peaks naturally with a slight gap. For example hypothetically if you have a 3.5khz natural peak that makes guitars sound horrible, you'll be crossing over the mids at 3000hz and tweeters at 4000hz at -12 db slope, the gap would create a big enough attenuation at that frequency that fully tames the peak which results in relatively flat and smooth silky response.

However as of now, there is absolutely nothing else you can do can fix your issues. Phase, positioning, deadening can at best make miniscule improvements but the core issue will always be there. Adding more resistors will just cut out the good frequencies while your main issue is still unsolved. Or it makes it sound less annoying but the rest of the tweeter spectrum sounds like **** so its a wash.

 

[2Wheelzgood]

Hey Jeff that’s a great detailed response, thank you. However Im pretty sure the shop confirmed its a clean flat signal coming out of the head unit and all the x-overs and filtering is done at the factory amplifier - which was bypassed.

 

[YourNameHere 10+ year member]

Jeff is right.... with no eq and oem HU your stuck with shitty sound....and shops lie! you need a more capable HU or DSP

 

[2Wheelzgood]

ok i had actually researched the signal from the head unit before booking it in at the shop, the shop just confirmed it. it could all be wrong i guess but i just want to rule out things in order to find the source of the problem. here is a quote from the honda audio forum that states the same thing:

"For the Premium audio system,
The factory HU is a high quality unit with a clean and flat output, no EQ is needed to correct it. The output is a balanced line so you need an amp with balanced inputs (JL, Kicker, Rockford ) and others have this feature.
The factory amp is an 8 channel unit with a dedicated BTL amp for each speaker. The factory amp is where all the crossovers and frequency shaping takes place. If you want to upgrade your sound you have to replace the factory amp first.
Speakers, you will need a good set of components upfront and possibly a sub in the trunk. Rear deck and door speakers will only screw up the sound stage. Spend your money on the front.
DSPs, unless you want one or need one for competition you don't need one. The best sound stage and SQ is achieved with a clean signal path. DSPs and time EQ add distortion and are never used in high end audio systems.
Shop your local stores for speakers and pick a set that sounds good to you and not what the salesman says you should buy. Bring your own music and make sure the sound level is the same when switching between sets. A speaker that plays louder will trick you into thinking it sounds better, it's an old audio salesman's trick.

I have been working with the Honda Premium systems since 2006. I used to sell audio in the 70's and I run an audio repair shop."

and here is another post saying the same thing:

line output conversion question

www.driveaccord.net

it's located halfway down page 1 of 2 on this post:

Kicker Amp and Speaker Upgrade

www.driveaccord.net

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

Disconnect the tweeters, listen to the song that you are most noticing the harshness with... is it still harsh without the tweeters? If so, it's the tweeters, turn them down further or check to make sure the wires are correct +to+ and -to-. Even shops make mistakes.

Edit:
Most guitars are going to come through your midrange speaker though. Check the polarity on those as well and make sure they are SEALED to the mounting surface. NO GAPS.

"The fundamental frequencies in the playable range of the typical, in-tune electric guitar covers the range from about 80 Hz to about 1200 Hz " - Recordingology.com

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

ok i had actually researched the signal from the head unit before booking it in at the shop, the shop just confirmed it. it could all be wrong i guess but i just want to rule out things in order to find the source of the problem. here is a quote from the honda audio forum that states the same thing:

"For the Premium audio system,
The factory HU is a high quality unit with a clean and flat output, no EQ is needed to correct it. The output is a balanced line so you need an amp with balanced inputs (JL, Kicker, Rockford ) and others have this feature.
The factory amp is an 8 channel unit with a dedicated BTL amp for each speaker. The factory amp is where all the crossovers and frequency shaping takes place. If you want to upgrade your sound you have to replace the factory amp first.
Speakers, you will need a good set of components upfront and possibly a sub in the trunk. Rear deck and door speakers will only screw up the sound stage. Spend your money on the front.
DSPs, unless you want one or need one for competition you don't need one. The best sound stage and SQ is achieved with a clean signal path. DSPs and time EQ add distortion and are never used in high end audio systems.
Shop your local stores for speakers and pick a set that sounds good to you and not what the salesman says you should buy. Bring your own music and make sure the sound level is the same when switching between sets. A speaker that plays louder will trick you into thinking it sounds better, it's an old audio salesman's trick.

I have been working with the Honda Premium systems since 2006. I used to sell audio in the 70's and I run an audio repair shop."

and here is another post saying the same thing:

line output conversion question

www.driveaccord.net

it's located halfway down page 1 of 2 on this post:

Kicker Amp and Speaker Upgrade

www.driveaccord.net

this literally discredits that source completely. I'm guessing he's never been to any actual sound quality competitions for example MECA or IASCA but then again thats a honda forum, not a sound quality forum so I highly doubt he even tested the signal with an RTA. In any serious competition No one would be caught dead without a DSP if they plan on winning. The ones that dont place at all are the ones that think their speakers and high dollar amps will do everything while the DSP setups are the only ones taking trophies. There's too many phase issues and reflections that causes peaks and dips in a car environment. The only way to get a flat response is with crossovers and a comprehensive parametric EQ.

It still stands, you need EQ and run in network mode to solve any of your issues. No tuning capabilities means you are stuck with what you have which is playing the acoustics lottery and losing badly.

I've also done installs in recent gen honda accords. The stock head unit sounds like absolute ****. Swap to a pioneer double din and the difference was massive across the board even before I started on any kind of tuning.

 

[2Wheelzgood]

this literally discredits that source completely. I'm guessing he's never been to any actual sound quality competitions for example MECA or IASCA but then again thats a honda forum, not a sound quality forum so I highly doubt he even tested the signal with an RTA. In any serious competition No one would be caught dead without a DSP if they plan on winning. The ones that dont place at all are the ones that think their speakers and high dollar amps will do everything while the DSP setups are the only ones taking trophies. There's too many phase issues and reflections that causes peaks and dips in a car environment. The only way to get a flat response is with crossovers and a comprehensive parametric EQ.

It still stands, you need EQ and run in network mode to solve any of your issues. No tuning capabilities means you are stuck with what you have which is playing the acoustics lottery and losing badly.

I've also done installs in recent gen honda accords. The stock head unit sounds like absolute ****. Swap to a pioneer double din and the difference was massive across the board even before I started on any kind of tuning.

Hey Jeff, i agree with you that its quite possible its a phase issue or reflections issue but i want to start out knowing i have a clean flat signal leaving the head unit. here is another post with the same head unit as mine, he has a picture with scope on the output verifying it to be clean and flat:

2014 Hybrid EX-L SQ Install

www.driveaccord.net

i would have had no problem going with a DSP amp but was told i wouldn't need one and has been bought and paid for and wired as it is. I would really rather not have to waste all this money and throw more at it. i think i should be able to get reasonable sound at volume with the set up i have, as long as its diagnosed properly.

I really appreciate your feedback on it.
Thank, Mike

 

[YourNameHere 10+ year member]

lol.....goodluck

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Hey Jeff, i agree with you that its quite possible its a phase issue or reflections issue but i want to start out knowing i have a clean flat signal leaving the head unit. here is another post with the same head unit as mine, he has a picture with scope on the output verifying it to be clean and flat:

2014 Hybrid EX-L SQ Install

www.driveaccord.net

i would have had no problem going with a DSP amp but was told i wouldn't need one and has been bought and paid for and wired as it is. I would really rather not have to waste all this money and throw more at it. i think i should be able to get reasonable sound at volume with the set up i have, as long as its diagnosed properly.

I really appreciate your feedback on it.
Thank, Mike

Notice how that install has an arc audio ps8 processor. Any real SQ install has to have a DSP.

FYI, Keep in mind, the measured signal can be flat but what actually matters is what your car is measuring through a real time analyzer when everything is installed. I highly doubt your car is anything even close to flat. Thats where the dsp comes in. You dont have to throw a lot of money to the DSP either. A dayton DSP 408 is 150 dollars and the bluetooth dongle is 30 bucks which allows you to tune on your phone and will give you everything you need to fix your current issues. All you need to do is plug the wavetech to the dsp. get two or three pairs of RCAs. to go to the amp. You'll want to take out the passive crossover of the JL C3s. Have the tweeters wired on channel 1 and 2, turn the high pass filter on to 1000 or so on the amp for protection. Then have the mids wired to channel 3 and 4. You'll want to play around with crossover points and slopes usually around 2500-5000hz range to get the perfect blend between mid and tweeter so you dont get that harsh guitar. You can even adjust the level of each mid and tweeter independently so right and left side will have the same output levels. Time correction will allow sound waves reaching your ears at the same time and you'll actually have a proper sound stage. Then EQ for fine tuning adjustments to build your ideal response curve.

You see what you are missing right now? Currently you have no control over the output levels of the right and left mid/tweeter or even between mid and tweeters. You have no control over the crossover point. Your left speaker is closer to you than the right so sound waves are not hitting your ears at the same time. Top it off you dont have fine tuning adjustments. All you get is your accord acoustics and how your Passive components arent agreeing with those acoustics.

This whole thing should cost less than 250 bucks after tax accounting the dsp, RCAs, and speaker wire/install gear.

 

[SkizeR 10+ year member]

ps. i wouldnt trust that phone mic too much though but its better than nothing

this

try wiring the tweeters out of phase with the mids and see how it sounds...

Not this

This is most definitely a frequency response issue. Get a processor and learn how to tune, or take it to someone that can

 

[2Wheelzgood]

Notice how that install has an arc audio ps8 processor. Any real SQ install has to have a DSP.

FYI, Keep in mind, the measured signal can be flat but what actually matters is what your car is measuring through a real time analyzer when everything is installed. I highly doubt your car is anything even close to flat. Thats where the dsp comes in. You dont have to throw a lot of money to the DSP either. A dayton DSP 408 is 150 dollars and the bluetooth dongle is 30 bucks which allows you to tune on your phone and will give you everything you need to fix your current issues. All you need to do is plug the wavetech to the dsp. get two or three pairs of RCAs. to go to the amp. You'll want to take out the passive crossover of the JL C3s. Have the tweeters wired on channel 1 and 2, turn the high pass filter on to 1000 or so on the amp for protection. Then have the mids wired to channel 3 and 4. You'll want to play around with crossover points and slopes usually around 2500-5000hz range to get the perfect blend between mid and tweeter so you dont get that harsh guitar. You can even adjust the level of each mid and tweeter independently so right and left side will have the same output levels. Time correction will allow sound waves reaching your ears at the same time and you'll actually have a proper sound stage. Then EQ for fine tuning adjustments to build your ideal response curve.

You see what you are missing right now? Currently you have no control over the output levels of the right and left mid/tweeter or even between mid and tweeters. You have no control over the crossover point. Your left speaker is closer to you than the right so sound waves are not hitting your ears at the same time. Top it off you dont have fine tuning adjustments. All you get is your accord acoustics and how your Passive components arent agreeing with those acoustics.

This whole thing should cost less than 250 bucks after tax accounting the dsp, RCAs, and speaker wire/install gear.

damn ok, you make a compelling argument, as do most of the others. thanks for taking the time to explain it so well and for the product suggestions.

i guess i'm just having a hard time reconciling the fact that others have upgraded their car audio while keeping the same factory deck and being very happy with the results. its not that i'm picky, it just sounds bad, like 10 minutes and its turned off type of bad.

i am open to this DSP route now that it has been explained to me so well but I also think ThxOne might be on to something - thank you. I assumed it was the tweeter but maybe those grating tones are more in the woofer zone, i listened again paying attention to them and they sound like ass with my ear up next to them and the door open. maybe they are leaking out of the rear and need a proper seal/matting. i looked at my receipt and i wasn't charged for any of that so i presume they just dropped them in.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

damn ok, you make a compelling argument, as do most of the others. thanks for taking the time to explain it so well and for the product suggestions.

i guess i'm just having a hard time reconciling the fact that others have upgraded their car audio while keeping the same factory deck and being very happy with the results. its not that i'm picky, it just sounds bad, like 10 minutes and its turned off type of bad.

i am open to this DSP route now that it has been explained to me so well but I also think ThxOne might be on to something - thank you. I assumed it was the tweeter but maybe those grating tones are more in the woofer zone, i listened again paying attention to them and they sound like ass with my ear up next to them and the door open. maybe they are leaking out of the rear and need a proper seal/matting. i looked at my receipt and i wasn't charged for any of that so i presume they just dropped them in.

Its like i said. Passive components is like playing the car acoustics lottery. Some wins but most others lose. Lol