Guitars sound harsh, likely culprit?

[2Wheelzgood]

Notice how that install has an arc audio ps8 processor. Any real SQ install has to have a DSP.

FYI, Keep in mind, the measured signal can be flat but what actually matters is what your car is measuring through a real time analyzer when everything is installed. I highly doubt your car is anything even close to flat. Thats where the dsp comes in. You dont have to throw a lot of money to the DSP either. A dayton DSP 408 is 150 dollars and the bluetooth dongle is 30 bucks which allows you to tune on your phone and will give you everything you need to fix your current issues. All you need to do is plug the wavetech to the dsp. get two or three pairs of RCAs. to go to the amp. You'll want to take out the passive crossover of the JL C3s. Have the tweeters wired on channel 1 and 2, turn the high pass filter on to 1000 or so on the amp for protection. Then have the mids wired to channel 3 and 4. You'll want to play around with crossover points and slopes usually around 2500-5000hz range to get the perfect blend between mid and tweeter so you dont get that harsh guitar. You can even adjust the level of each mid and tweeter independently so right and left side will have the same output levels. Time correction will allow sound waves reaching your ears at the same time and you'll actually have a proper sound stage. Then EQ for fine tuning adjustments to build your ideal response curve.

You see what you are missing right now? Currently you have no control over the output levels of the right and left mid/tweeter or even between mid and tweeters. You have no control over the crossover point. Your left speaker is closer to you than the right so sound waves are not hitting your ears at the same time. Top it off you dont have fine tuning adjustments. All you get is your accord acoustics and how your Passive components arent agreeing with those acoustics.

This whole thing should cost less than 250 bucks after tax accounting the dsp, RCAs, and speaker wire/install gear.

if i go this DSP route i'm wondering about adding the rear speakers back in (they are currently disconnected behind the glove box where the old factory amplfier was). if i run another pair of rca's from the DSP's ch 7 & 8 for the rears how would i connect them to the 5.1 amp as i'd be using the 4 rca input channels for the front tweets and woofers in this scenario? also would it be practical to tap into the factory speaker wire for the rears, my amp is under the passenger seat.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

if i go this DSP route i'm wondering about adding the rear speakers back in (they are currently disconnected behind the glove box where the old factory amplfier was). if i run another pair of rca's from the DSP's ch 7 & 8 for the rears how would i connect them to the 5.1 amp as i'd be using the 4 rca input channels for the front tweets and woofers in this scenario? also would it be practical to tap into the factory speaker wire for the rears, my amp is under the passenger seat.

if you want to run rears you'll need another amp. Rears are a waste of time, money and power. Any money that you plan on putting to the rears, put that money into better front speakers, deadening, power etc... All the rears do is ruin soundstage.

 

[2Wheelzgood]

if you want to run rears you'll need another amp. Rears are a waste of time, money and power. Any money that you plan on putting to the rears, put that money into better front speakers, deadening, power etc... All the rears do is ruin soundstage.

so update, I did pick up the Dayton DSP and had it installed and tuned at the local shop - passives x-overs removed. The harshness is gone and the sound is way better -enjoyable again - but I still want to tweak it to my liking, it’s still a bit flat sounding and the staging could be better (there was no delay adjustments)

anyway I thought I better save the shop setup before messing with anything and used the “save” option under the first eq preset, however after that all the advanced settings have reverted back to default and I have no sound. I have emailed the shop to see if they saved the setup file but I can’t imagine it allowed me to overwrite it so easily without a warning. is there a way to restore the shop settings. Thanks for any help.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

so update, I did pick up the Dayton DSP and had it installed and tuned at the local shop - passives x-overs removed. The harshness is gone and the sound is way better -enjoyable again - but I still want to tweak it to my liking, it’s still a bit flat sounding and the staging could be better (there was no delay adjustments)

anyway I thought I better save the shop setup before messing with anything and used the “save” option under the first eq preset, however after that all the advanced settings have reverted back to default and I have no sound. I have emailed the shop to see if they saved the setup file but I can’t imagine it allowed me to overwrite it so easily without a warning. is there a way to restore the shop settings. Thanks for any help.

If you overwritten it, ita gonna be hard to get it back since the data is saved onto the dayton unit. Try clicking on all the 6 presets to see if the shop has saved any of them. You'll need to get used to the interface. Id definitely make backup saves on a couple of the 6 slots

 

[2Wheelzgood]

If you overwritten it, ita gonna be hard to get it back since the data is saved onto the dayton unit. Try clicking on all the 6 presets to see if the shop has saved any of them. You'll need to get used to the interface. Id definitely make backup saves on a couple of the 6 slots

Yeah i did check all the other presets too and nothing saved in there. I think its crazy you can overwrite 2.5 hrs of tuning set up just by hitting “save” on a preset, there should be some sort of warning that you are about to overwrite something. I also didn’t notice an option to copy a preset to paste it to another as a base start?

anyway its a good excuse to learn a bit more. I appreciate your time and willingness to help out Jeff, thank you.

so to start I should probably set the x-overs, i did manage to save screen shots of all the eq screens and the output screens of the tweets and sub (not the mids unfortunately). The exact eq settings are hidden as the pics were taken with the default first 4 frequency view but i have the responce graphic.

so looks like:
Tweets lpf 20000, hpf 3000 with 24db slope
Mids lpf 3000, hpf 60 (guestimating based on graph - what sloped to use?)
Sub lpf 60 with 24db slope, hpf 20

does this sound like a good place to start?
I would have thought to carry the sub hpf a little higher to take dome energy and vibrations out of the mids?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Yeah i did check all the other presets too and nothing saved in there. I think its crazy you can overwrite 2.5 hrs of tuning set up just by hitting “save” on a preset, there should be some sort of warning that you are about to overwrite something. I also didn’t notice an option to copy a preset to paste it to another as a base start?

anyway its a good excuse to learn a bit more. I appreciate your time and willingness to help out Jeff, thank you.

so to start I should probably set the x-overs, i did manage to save screen shots of all the eq screens and the output screens of the tweets and sub (not the mids unfortunately). The exact eq settings are hidden as the pics were taken with the default first 4 frequency view but i have the responce graphic.

so looks like:
Tweets lpf 20000, hpf 3000 with 24db slope
Mids lpf 3000, hpf 60 (guestimating based on graph - what sloped to use?)
Sub lpf 60 with 24db slope, hpf 20

does this sound like a good place to start?
I would have thought to carry the sub hpf a little higher to take dome energy and vibrations out of the mids?

sounds like a good place to start. You can adjust however you want based on how things sound. You'll have LOTS of fun with the hours and hours of tuning you'll spend on it hahahaa just pretend you are a 5 year old with a new toy that you'll obsess with over the next couple of weeks.

 

[2Wheelzgood]

sounds like a good place to start. You can adjust however you want based on how things sound. You'll have LOTS of fun with the hours and hours of tuning you'll spend on it hahahaa just pretend you are a 5 year old with a new toy that you'll obsess with over the next couple of weeks.

Oh god, i hope not

So i think i have it back fairly close to how it was, difficult without having the exact EQ settings and just the graph. I noticed from one of the screenshots i took the shop had the right tweeter at 180 deg. Im assuming that means reversed polarity, guess i should put it back like that?

also the mixer output i set as:

In 1 & 2 are level 100 and they go to ch’s 1, 2 (tweeters) and 3 & 4 (mids)
In 3 & 4 are at 100 and they go to ch’s 7 & 8 (sub)

Does that seem correct?

thanks!

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Oh god, i hope not

So i think i have it back fairly close to how it was, difficult without having the exact EQ settings and just the graph. I noticed from one of the screenshots i took the shop had the right tweeter at 180 deg. Im assuming that means reversed polarity, guess i should put it back like that?

also the mixer output i set as:

In 1 & 2 are level 100 and they go to ch’s 1, 2 (tweeters) and 3 & 4 (mids)
In 3 & 4 are at 100 and they go to ch’s 7 & 8 (sub)

Does that seem correct?

thanks!

Yup. As for the polarity you'll jist need to see which is better. At least with that option you dont need tk manually switch the wiring on the tweeter to change polarity.

As for eq for the tweets id use
4000
4500
5000
5600
6300
7200
8000
10000
12000
16000

For the midrange id use these bands
80
125
200
315
500
800
1250
2000
2500
3125

Subwoofer id use these bands
20
25
31
35
40
45
50
55
60
65

That should give you much more control

 

[2Wheelzgood]

Yup. As for the polarity you'll jist need to see which is better. At least with that option you dont need tk manually switch the wiring on the tweeter to change polarity.

As for eq for the tweets id use
4000
4500
5000
5600
6300
7200
8000
10000
12000
16000

For the midrange id use these bands
80
125
200
315
500
800
1250
2000
2500
3125

Subwoofer id use these bands
20
25
31
35
40
45
50
55
60
65

That should give you much more control

Thanks for the eq suggestions, i noticed the x-over was set to 3000hz on the DSP but it looks like my JL C3’s response starts st 4000hz, is that an issue?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for the eq suggestions, i noticed the x-over was set to 3000hz on the DSP but it looks like my JL C3’s response starts st 4000hz, is that an issue?

Set it however sounds best youll need to play around. Those numbers dont matter too much unless you are trying to go below 3000hz

 

[2Wheelzgood]

Set it however sounds best youll need to play around. Those numbers dont matter too much unless you are trying to go below 3000hz

Ok good to know.

so after studying up on the DSP functionality I noticed the shops mixer settings seemed odd. They had it so “In 1” fed all 4 front ch’s and “In 3” fed both sub ch’s. I tried setting In 1 to ch’s 1, 3 & 7 and In 2 to ch’s 2, 4 & 8 (not sure if the sub should be getting full bandwidth?) and the thing came alive, it now sounds awesome, proper detail and staging.
Was this a correct adjustment?

also they had the in1 and in 2 mixer level at 47/100 and 3&4 at 77/100. They had mentioned something about the DSP only being able to take 3.2V, is that why? On the output levels on the x-over set ups the tweeters are 55/60 the other ch’s 60/60 and the main volume on the basic start screen is 60/66

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Ok good to know.

so after studying up on the DSP functionality I noticed the shops mixer settings seemed odd. They had it so “In 1” fed all 4 front ch’s and “In 3” fed both sub ch’s. I tried setting In 1 to ch’s 1, 3 & 7 and In 2 to ch’s 2, 4 & 8 (not sure if the sub should be getting full bandwidth?) and the thing came alive, it now sounds awesome, proper detail and staging.
Was this a correct adjustment?

also they had the in1 and in 2 mixer level at 47/100 and 3&4 at 77/100. They had mentioned something about the DSP only being able to take 3.2V, is that why? On the output levels on the x-over set ups the tweeters are 55/60 the other ch’s 60/60 and the main volume on the basic start screen is 60/66

you got the setting correct. The shop had it completely wrong lmao for the inputs.

The input levels have room to play with so adjust as needed.

Now you see what i mean about DSP being the absolute brain of the system? Without a proper brain, the whole system cannot function. A good tune is literally everything. I rank it the absolute most important piece of your sound system.

 

[2Wheelzgood]

you got the setting correct. The shop had it completely wrong lmao for the inputs.

The input levels have room to play with so adjust as needed.

Now you see what i mean about DSP being the absolute brain of the system? Without a proper brain, the whole system cannot function. A good tune is literally everything. I rank it the absolute most important piece of your sound system.

yes i'm glad i took your advice and went with the DSP, its really night and day!

I'm still a bit confused about the voltages, the shop warned me it might clip or i might blow my speakers due to the voltage handling limitations of the DSP compared to my amp.

what am i actually doing voltage wise when i change the In 1 or In 2 levels in the "Mixer" tab, or when i move the slider on the specified channels "Output" tab that goes up to lvl 60. what about the Main Volume page that goes up to lvl 66. Which setting is the one i have to be careful with?

thanks again

 

[diehappy 10+ year member]

yes i'm glad i took your advice and went with the DSP, its really night and day!

I'm still a bit confused about the voltages, the shop warned me it might clip or i might blow my speakers due to the voltage handling limitations of the DSP compared to my amp.

what am i actually doing voltage wise when i change the In 1 or In 2 levels in the "Mixer" tab, or when i move the slider on the specified channels "Output" tab that goes up to lvl 60. what about the Main Volume page that goes up to lvl 66. Which setting is the one i have to be careful with?

thanks again

An I am glad you found out DSPs are fantastic. I never used one before my current build. The shop that put mine in did it all crappy as well. I started playing with it "Many times" redoing over and over. One day I made a few changes and BAM.. ALIVE lol Night and Day difference. They took my rear door speakers and used them for full range in for the whole dsp.... what a joke this place is... and they put my tweeters down by my feet....

anyways DSP will help you get that sound stage 100%