Building the top notch SQ system

Well... this turned into quite a thread.

Deadener is for vibration/resonance. It absorbs it. It goes on sheet metal (usually). You only need ~ 25% coverage if you use good stuff (butyl based CLD).

CCF is for decoupling. This is for rattles and it just separates the two things that are hitting each other.

MLV is a noise barrier. It's for road noise.

The insulation in KHA's doors is for rear wave absorption so that the sound from the woofer doesn't bounce back into it and muddy the sound.

Install is paramount. You can make crap gear sound good with a great install. But you aren't going to make great gear sound good with a crap install. Besides... you don't *need* to spend a mortgage payment on drivers or amps. There are fantastic drivers that cost a pittance compared to the high priced components. And IDGAF what people say about "sound signature" and all that BS... all you need is plenty of clean power. High dollar front stage amps are just for showing off.

The MS-8 is awesome for what it is and what it does. But if you like to "fiddle"... it will drive you bananas. Full fledged processors are getting cheaper and more powerful by the day. The MiniDSP is an amazing piece and it's only $100 per 4 channels. Ampere's new processor is 8 channels with optical input and 10 band parametric per channel and is "only" $400ish.

A "stage" is exactly what it sounds like. Imagine sitting front row center at a concert. Singer in the middle. Drums behind, guitar left or right, blah blah blah. You should be able to pick all of that out in their proper places. Including depth. Height, width and depth. Depth is the most difficult. It should be three dimensional.

It's basically impossible to explain all of this. It's like explaining what a color looks like to a blind person. You need a reference. Get your butt to a show or shop or somewhere with a fantastic SQ car and ask for a demo. SQ guys will almost always be more than willing to show it off and they talk your head off about their car.

 
Well... this turned into quite a thread.
Deadener is for vibration/resonance. It absorbs it. It goes on sheet metal (usually). You only need ~ 25% coverage if you use good stuff (butyl based CLD).

CCF is for decoupling. This is for rattles and it just separates the two things that are hitting each other.

MLV is a noise barrier. It's for road noise.

The insulation in KHA's doors is for rear wave absorption so that the sound from the woofer doesn't bounce back into it and muddy the sound.

Install is paramount. You can make crap gear sound good with a great install. But you aren't going to make great gear sound good with a crap install. Besides... you don't *need* to spend a mortgage payment on drivers or amps. There are fantastic drivers that cost a pittance compared to the high priced components. And IDGAF what people say about "sound signature" and all that BS... all you need is plenty of clean power. High dollar front stage amps are just for showing off.

The MS-8 is awesome for what it is and what it does. But if you like to "fiddle"... it will drive you bananas. Full fledged processors are getting cheaper and more powerful by the day. The MiniDSP is an amazing piece and it's only $100 per 4 channels. Ampere's new processor is 8 channels with optical input and 10 band parametric per channel and is "only" $400ish.

A "stage" is exactly what it sounds like. Imagine sitting front row center at a concert. Singer in the middle. Drums behind, guitar left or right, blah blah blah. You should be able to pick all of that out in their proper places. Including depth. Height, width and depth. Depth is the most difficult. It should be three dimensional.

It's basically impossible to explain all of this. It's like explaining what a color looks like to a blind person. You need a reference. Get your butt to a show or shop or somewhere with a fantastic SQ car and ask for a demo. SQ guys will almost always be more than willing to show it off and they talk your head off about their car.
Mostly true. The post keep_hope_alive made regarding components and tolerances was pretty educational and makes a lot of sense as to why amps "sound" different. Things he mentioned, like channel separation and higher quality components all add up to the proper sound stage. I think once all this criteria is met and there's plenty of power on deck, that's when it's "enough." Also, not buying crap gear sounding good...period. If a speaker inherently doesn't have the ability to produce a proper stage or lacks output at certain frequencies - is deadening the doord, getting rid of noise, installing it on axis, TAing it, EQing it going to make up for it? No.

Conversely, I do agree that a poor install can negate the "greatness" of your gear.

I'm taking it you've heard a ton of awesome setups and don't care for them any more than some type-Rs on a PPI with a DSP and treated interior?

 
I think budgeting a grand for speaker amps and a grand for speakers is a good start, that way the install is the place to focus. Above that, you need an amazing install to get an appreciable improvement. As you get better, improvement are sibtle.

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If a speaker inherently doesn't have the ability to produce a proper stage or lacks output at certain frequencies - is deadening the doord, getting rid of noise, installing it on axis, TAing it, EQing it going to make up for it?
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to concerning a certain speaker "not being able to produce a proper stage". Can you elaborate?

I'm taking it you've heard a ton of awesome setups and don't care for them any more than some type-Rs on a PPI with a DSP and treated interior?
I have heard some amazing setups. Some that have 10's of thousands of dollars worth. And some that have just... 10's of dollars.

Point is... if you can't get $50 drivers to sound good... buying $500 ones isn't going to help you.

 
Well... this turned into quite a thread.
Deadener is for vibration/resonance. It absorbs it. It goes on sheet metal (usually). You only need ~ 25% coverage if you use good stuff (butyl based CLD).

CCF is for decoupling. This is for rattles and it just separates the two things that are hitting each other.

MLV is a noise barrier. It's for road noise.

The insulation in KHA's doors is for rear wave absorption so that the sound from the woofer doesn't bounce back into it and muddy the sound.

Install is paramount. You can make crap gear sound good with a great install. But you aren't going to make great gear sound good with a crap install. Besides... you don't *need* to spend a mortgage payment on drivers or amps. There are fantastic drivers that cost a pittance compared to the high priced components. And IDGAF what people say about "sound signature" and all that BS... all you need is plenty of clean power. High dollar front stage amps are just for showing off.

The MS-8 is awesome for what it is and what it does. But if you like to "fiddle"... it will drive you bananas. Full fledged processors are getting cheaper and more powerful by the day. The MiniDSP is an amazing piece and it's only $100 per 4 channels. Ampere's new processor is 8 channels with optical input and 10 band parametric per channel and is "only" $400ish.

A "stage" is exactly what it sounds like. Imagine sitting front row center at a concert. Singer in the middle. Drums behind, guitar left or right, blah blah blah. You should be able to pick all of that out in their proper places. Including depth. Height, width and depth. Depth is the most difficult. It should be three dimensional.

It's basically impossible to explain all of this. It's like explaining what a color looks like to a blind person. You need a reference. Get your butt to a show or shop or somewhere with a fantastic SQ car and ask for a demo. SQ guys will almost always be more than willing to show it off and they talk your head off about their car.
You can fiddle with the MS-8. You still have a 31 band EQ. You can calibrate it over and over till you're happy.

 
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to concerning a certain speaker "not being able to produce a proper stage". Can you elaborate?


I have heard some amazing setups. Some that have 10's of thousands of dollars worth. And some that have just... 10's of dollars.

Point is... if you can't get $50 drivers to sound good... buying $500 ones isn't going to help you.
Yes, I would agree with that. I'm always for a good install and I definitely appreciate taking proper steps to ensure a quiet interior. My point is that every piece of equipment has its maximum potential and the proper install, tuning, etc ensure that this potential is realized. For example, and this is my main point, not all speakers are equal...or else everyone would be buying the cheap stuff. It is a fact that some speakers lack transparency, some lack the upper end, some lack low end, some are less detailed, etc. Agreed that you can make $2,000 speakers sound like $50 ones by being careless with the install, but both properly installed, there's no way the converse is true. You can spend all the time in the world on the install and every minute detail, but if the speaker lacks transparency...nothing is making up for it. Channel separation keep_hope_alive mentioned seems to be something of note and amp lacking proper channel separation isn't going to magically get better just because it has enough power.

 
Unless your car is parked, you aspire to compete, or your car is perfectly insulated (good luck with that one) I feel the considerably higher priced amps are not worth it in a car audio scenario. You can find some decent, reasonably priced equipment and have an pretty solid sq, daily setup if installed correctly. If you want to buy esoteric brands for the craftsmanship, aesthetics, or whatever reason go for it, but in no way are they required.

 
Unless your car is parked, you aspire to compete, or your car is perfectly insulated (good luck with that one) I feel the considerably higher priced amps are not worth it in a car audio scenario. You can find some decent, reasonably priced equipment and have an pretty solid sq, daily setup if installed correctly. If you want to buy esoteric brands for the craftsmanship, aesthetics, or whatever reason go for it, but in no way are they required.
Yes, I agree with the amp stuff. I think getting away with a cheaper amp is easier than with cheaper speakers.

 
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