Adire Audio is back!

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

You should study the Sumerian tablets and their creation myth from 4500B.C.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

I'm actually really impressed with most of the recent Sundown drivers.

I'm not. Apart from the fact that it's something not off-the-shelf for once, those meme drivers have absolutely nothing to offer besides mechanical power handling for the sake of power handling. IMO there is absolutely no need for giving up so much piston area and adding all that mass for any application that could be remotely considered musical and for the most part it's useless for true SPL applications except for probably a few very unusual exceptions.

I had a friend up here that was running Zv3 12s on Atomic 5K in a high-ish tuned box, doing about 151.3 to 151.5. BUT he would play material way below tuning and those cones would fail, more specifically the surrounds would rip at the edge of the cone. We tried to fix this with stacking 4 and 5 spiders (I think stock option was 3) but he would break them too. So when those new parts first came out I got some of those cones and 10" spiders and used some spare Ti frames.

Well that solved his issue with breaking subs but he lost down to 150.1. The point being, if he had simply used a subsonic filter, built a lower tuned box, or just dialed down the volume a click he would have been at the same level of output without having to spend 150$ a sub in meme parts. I broke a lot of those Zv2 and Zv3 12" surrounds but never from anything besides abuse.

Again, do the math yourself and see how much actual output that extra excursion buys you, not much and in the real world you lose that and then some with inefficiency.

It's nice that the consumer market is basically just people who will pay to show off big power ratings numbers and post youtube videos of their sub flapping wildly as they're playing below where their port unloads , but as far as anything truly useful I'm still waiting. I had a pair of LMS4000's for a bit and in a proper box (tuned mid 20hz) I couldn't bottom them out on a Stetsom 7K.

I'll definitely start a thread and keep people updated when the LTO cells get here.

You should study the Sumerian tablets and their creation myth from 4500B.C.

Manly P. Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" could be considered the difinitive primer on the subject of ancient mystery religions as well.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I'm not. Apart from the fact that it's something not off-the-shelf for once, those meme drivers have absolutely nothing to offer besides mechanical power handling for the sake of power handling. IMO there is absolutely no need for giving up so much piston area and adding all that mass for any application that could be remotely considered musical and for the most part it's useless for true SPL applications except for probably a few very unusual exceptions.
I had a friend up here that was running Zv3 12s on Atomic 5K in a high-ish tuned box, doing about 151.3 to 151.5. BUT he would play material way below tuning and those cones would fail, more specifically the surrounds would rip at the edge of the cone. We tried to fix this with stacking 4 and 5 spiders (I think stock option was 3) but he would break them too. So when those new parts first came out I got some of those cones and 10" spiders and used some spare Ti frames.

Well that solved his issue with breaking subs but he lost down to 150.1. The point being, if he had simply used a subsonic filter, built a lower tuned box, or just dialed down the volume a click he would have been at the same level of output without having to spend 150$ a sub in meme parts. I broke a lot of those Zv2 and Zv3 12" surrounds but never from anything besides abuse.

Again, do the math yourself and see how much actual output that extra excursion buys you, not much and in the real world you lose that and then some with inefficiency.

It's nice that the consumer market is basically just people who will pay to show off big power ratings numbers and post youtube videos of their sub flapping wildly as they're playing below where their port unloads , but as far as anything truly useful I'm still waiting. I had a pair of LMS4000's for a bit and in a proper box (tuned mid 20hz) I couldn't bottom them out on a Stetsom 7K.

I'll definitely start a thread and keep people updated when the LTO cells get here.

Manly P. Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" could be considered the difinitive primer on the subject of ancient mystery religions as well.

I was able to get the last DD 9512s x2 on the 5k playing 149-150 over a full octave. That’s something no sundown woofers with not that much cone area will do. Not even the Zv3. Almost got 1.5 octaves out of it but I was more focused on playing anything. The monster mid bass helped out at 70hz

I’ll check that out. I’ve been on a Akunnaki kick. Funny how much of the bibles where plagiarized. But people that don’t want to know that won’t know that

 

[germanyt 10+ year member]

Just saying years ago when I got my apxx 18 with 4” coil it was $550 shippedNot exactly expensive when top aa sd or dc are over $1000

I got 2 RE SX 15s for 480 bucks total. Before RE went to **** of course. Dont think a better deal exists anywhere today. Even with inflation.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

I'm not. Apart from the fact that it's something not off-the-shelf for once, those meme drivers have absolutely nothing to offer besides mechanical power handling for the sake of power handling.
Again, do the math yourself and see how much actual output that extra excursion buys you, not much and in the real world you lose that and then some with inefficiency.

It's nice that the consumer market is basically just people who will pay to show off big power ratings numbers and post youtube videos of their sub flapping wildly as they're playing below where their port unloads , but as far as anything truly useful I'm still waiting. I had a pair of LMS4000's for a bit and in a proper box (tuned mid 20hz) I couldn't bottom them out on a Stetsom 7K.

To be fair, I have no actual experience running any Sundown subs so I will take you at your word. I haven't seen any tearing in the numerous videos highlighting these high power builds using high excursion Sundown drivers so I wonder what other variables may have led to the failure, aside from the fact that it sounds like they simply unloaded below tuning under sustained high power and that's simple abuse outside of intended use. But the report of tearing foam surrounds only supports one of my initial qualms with the build on these new Adire drivers. We're at the point now where we can make rubber surrounds of different thicknesses and various profiles that will help with preserving cone area while lending themselves to high excursion and/or low distortion. They can also lend the exact same sensitivity figure and they will last longer. No need for foam anymore but it's cheaper than rubber, that's all. This helps the company's bottom line and that's acceptable as long as you're not charging premium prices on the driver. Because if you are, the way I see it, at that point you're getting over on your customer by incorporating a level of built-in obsolescence in the form of a surround that will knowingly fail and require the replacement parts that the company will surely offer you at a "fair" market price. But even if you choose to get them from someone other than the OEM, I see these foam surround cones being offered for like $30-$60 in some places. Each! I can't respect any of that. It's paper and foam for fucks sake, and likely Chines at that. Now if the required surround for your special recipe of T/S specs is foam, and it's musical, and it's big enough to offer a balance of design that will prevent it from ever pulling tight and experience the type of stress that could tear it, then okay. But the surround and spider that is being offered on the new Brahma can most certainly be pulled completely tight within it's thermal ratings and will most certainly need replacement down the road, and the company is going to tell you that it's not covered under warranty because it will be considered over-excursion abuse outside of intended use. Pretty senseless IMHO since this is all based on, and marketed as, a low distortion, high excursion driver. It's not a high thermal, low excursion type of driver intended to drive a vent under very high sustained power. No. With sustained high power it will hit thermal compression like a brick wall, much in the same way the 3" LMS drivers do (but not for the same reasons). Because both types of drivers are intended for dynamic musical conditions experiencing only momentary bursts of high power that would more likely stress the driver in a mechanical way if they were implemented correctly in any given application.
But back to the Sundown thing, I can really appreciate how much advancement and potential there is in some of those motors, and much of my statement about being impressed was based on that alone. My mind instantly goes to "that would make for a great underhung driver" when I see many of his offerings, but I know that's not his intended market. I feel like it's not really his fault for how the entire lineup has turned into this meme driver that you describe. If he's in touch with the demographic and that's what the masses want, which is to be able to abuse their equipment, then I guess he's done what's necessary by designing things in a direction that gives the masses what they want, but in a way that will also help to protect himself from too many warranty claims. Sounds like they occasionally still give up the ghost, though? Hard to believe with those stiff spiders and insane excursion potentials. But people...

I'm with you, though, on the other points you make about the extra power handling and excursion possibly coming at a cost of some efficiency. I'm not really trying to debate that too much, especially as the sensitivity on my current sub (also an LMS4000) is like 80-82dB and I'm only feeding it a real-world 1200w-1500w so do the math on that one, lol. I'm not loud but I am most decidedly visceral. I'm not a huge fan of stiff parts and grossly oversized surrounds for the sake of power handling. But based on very large mounts of personal experience with vast amounts of drivers of all types across the board, I am a huge proponent of softer oversized spiders and reasonably large and specially shaped surrounds for the sake of quieter, low distortion excursion (and sometimes you can have a tight gap in there as a cherry on top but not often). I'm using that excursion for extended bandwidth reaching well below 20Hz, not for greater output. I'm not really touching on the oversized parts thing (relative to the topic of these XBL Adire offerings) for any other reason than quieter excursion and lower distortion for lower powered musical systems. Because by now, I'm sure you know I'm not a numbers guy and efficiency is one of the last things that I concern myself with when it comes to subwoofers. And for that matter, XBL, LMS, or any other linear BL drivers shouldn't be the first choice of anyone attempting to get loud, for obvious reasons. They've already forsaken a good chunk of efficiency for the sake of linearity, so again, the parts chosen for these drivers should be for the quietest, most dynamic operation possible without being prone to unnecessary failure. That much is owed to anyone willing to pay high prices for these types of low distortion drivers, it should literally be a given.

You and I actually agree on quite a few fronts but we're working toward different goals so it's no surprise that we have some differing views on driver build quality and that's okay, it's just discussion. I think we're both probably pretty damn good in our respective approaches and I have not doubt I would be impressed with your setup, knowing all along that it's not anything I would ever personally shoot for. I'm certain you would find yourself saying something similar if you could hear my setup, "sounds bloody great but it's not near loud enough", lol. But I can produce absolutely pure tones (no distortion) with complete authority down to 12-15Hz in a way that will remind you that there actually is plenty of content down that low in many different types of recordings, new and old. It's just that most people don't extract them and include them in the overall presentation. Those frequencies have mostly been labeled as wasteful, cut out and cast aside in the quest for high power SPL presentations and that's fine if that's what a person enjoys. Low distortion, dynamic musicality, and wide bandwidth favoring incredibly low frequency extension, are top of my list my list and I run mostly large sealed enclosures or large EBS type vented alignments so I really require gobs of quiet excursion in order to meet my demands. Whatever output I can get from any given setup, I'm okay with it because that's the trade-off I knew I was making in order to hit my other goals. It's not meter loud but I'm also a seasoned basshead who drives around listening to tones now and then so it's nothing to sneeze at, either. I know I'm not the larger demographic but I know there are plenty more out there like me who want this exact same thing. In any event, quiet oversized soft parts that allow for lots of excursion are pretty important even if you don't intend to ever find the limits of what the driver can do mechanically. But again that's from a reliability and musicality perspective so that the driver can do it's thing without us needing to hear the soft parts pulling tight and making extraneous noises of their own and drawing attention to the presence of a subwoofer. And in rare events for us relatively low-powered musical guys, they can serve to protect the driver from accidental over-excursion by being able to cope with and absorb some of that unintended momentary "abuse". Not the outright abuse one would experience when allowing drivers to see high power below tuning and expecting them to hold up, as you described above. High-powered vented alignments are already running close to thermal limits most of the time so it stands to reason that they are always one short step away from mechanical catastrophe when it comes to unloading. High excursion potential is on your side either way and the market reflects this everywhere you look with those meme drivers, loss of efficiency or not. For daily drivers looking to piss-pound their equipment, that trade-off is easily answered with cheap power and so the conundrum never ends. Higher power, stiffer/more spiders, bigger surrounds. Meme, indeed.

But, I reiterate, I do share your view on those drivers for the sake of SPL. Tighter gaps, lower moving mass and the resulting higher efficiency is a large portion of a better way to get there.

I rambled because I am home alone and drinkink mediocre whiskey, I apologize to all.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Funny how much of the bibles where plagiarized.

Learn to differentiate mythos and logos. There doesn't have to be an ant who works hard and saves for the winter and a grasshopper who plays the fiddle for that tale to be true. Whether or not the rank and file of any faith take the mythos literally or not I suspect the priest class or adepts understand that most of it is supposed to be allegory and parable only. Recurring themes should be taken as trying to illustrate important truths about human nature and not so much as an account of historical events.

To be fair, I have no actual experience running any Sundown subs so I will take you at your word. I haven't seen any tearing in the numerous videos highlighting these high power builds using high excursion Sundown drivers

First of all, apart from the early run fiasco with glue failure I don't think anybody is breaking those big surround cones. The original Z cones were prone to failure around the surrounds under abuse, the new ones can take anything you'll throw at them. I suspect if you were trying you'd break the triple joint first. Re-read my anecdote of my friend with the 12s. He was breaking zv2 cones so we switched to the new style cones and he did not break them (but lost 1.4dB)

As to cone materials, they are super cheap any way you slice it. Even "expensive" made in USA cones will only be 12-16$ a whack or so (provided you're buying them by the 1000), Chinese ones 3-4$ each(possibly double that with shipping costs). Still though I find it hard to believe anybody is using an inferior surround for the sake of saving

That said, where do we draw the line of acceptable efficiency loss for the sake of "power is cheap so let's make it mechanically indestructible"? Truck on over to DIYMA and tell me how many of those guys are throwing more than 1200W into a single driver. How many home theater guys run more than that? How often do you run more than 1200W into a 3" coil woofer? You would be hard pressed to break a 3" coil woofer 12" or larger on 1200W unclipped even on a standard 12 spoke frame. Beyond that, look at what you really gain. Adding 50% more excursion = 1.5dB (one click of the volume knob). For how much extra cost in parts? How much efficiency did you lose with all the mass you just added and cone area you sacrificed? At what point is a better/cheaper brute force approach to trying to cheat Hoffman to just cram a larger cone into the smaller box then accept that inefficiency?

Whether you care about numbers or not that is what you're after. A certain level of output that can be directly translated into an SPL score, and as "cheap" as power is, it's not really because electrical upgrades to run "cheap" big amps add up quick and they take up precious space and add weight to the vehicle.

I absolutely understand and respect what you're doing, I enjoyed my time low/flat tuning but for me I found besides some pipe organ tracks and watching movies I never used those wind-tunnel notes. I'm perfectly happy to sacrifice everything below 35hz for the sake of efficiency and output in the bandwidth my preferred music plays. That said, I'd trade out 4 of my neo Sigs even-up for some LMS 5400s and roll with them for a while if I had the opportunity and modify my port to tune @25hz.

 

[supa_c 5,000+ posts]

Had to blow the cobwebs out of my account to reply to this thread..my its been a long while.

I will say that both Brandon and Andrew have had some major uphill battles trying to get everything made in USA and up to their standards. The overseas garbage made these days is mind boggling.

Support your country, buy local ! Yes it costs more, blame Trump ?

There are a lot of models in the lineup over the years, some may not see the light of day again but all of your favourites are coming back better than ever.

Adire Audio was always known for its drivers sounding awesome in both HT and CA applications, this has not changed. WAF/MIF pending. You'll have to ask their wives.

The logo on the Brahma cone is a Bull, it always has been since the MKI. Black motor structure just like you remember too. 

Shiva is no longer the ugly duckling it always was, terrible stamped steel basket, spade terminals and pressed paper trim ring are long gone.

Dan is involved as much as he needs to be. He does a great job at what he does with Adire and many other company's he works with.

Keep your eyes peeled late Q3-early Q4 for product.

* covered under U.S.C 47 § 230

No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.

 

[Pav26]

I'm left a little underwhelmed with Adire's relaunch. My views are very similar to those of ciaonzo's.

When the Tumult was being designed, some 15 or so years ago, Dan used to tease of 50/60/70mm one-way xmax designs. The issue was the limiting baskets and softparts available at the time. We are now in 2018. With little available in the way of truly high excursion, low inductance, low distortion drivers, I would love for AA to push the envelope and produce a Brahma that bests the original in every single way. For instance, no shorting ring(s) were utilised in the original Brahma, which is a shame given the rebate in the top plate is the perfect place for one to be located. New Adire doesn't even list Le as a spec on their website. Yes, you can debate just how meaningful such a figure taken at 1kHz is, but at the end of the day, I think it's a useful metric.

As for the Shiva and Tempest, regardless of how 'ugly' or not they now are, the fact remains that they aren't very special or appealing given the market today. Shane said it best; I'll have a Reference HF instead, thanks.

Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled to see such a company back, and more options for the consumer is always a good thing. To me though, the whole Adire relaunch (thus far) reads as an attempt to sell drivers predicated on nostalgia for the brand. I commend Jacob for pushing the envelope when he tooled his surrounds/cones and baskets. I hope Adire is willing to do the same, but only time will tell. Perhaps there just aren't enough people like us left to be able to reasonably demand higher end products, though, and I understand costs are an issue.   

 

[only126db 10+ year member]

Support your country, buy local ! Yes it costs more, blame Trump ?

I seriously hope you are joking.... Cheap overseas electronics started flooding the US in the late 80's....Didnt have crap to do with Trump and neither does the cost of items made here, thats due to that 80's flood of cheap overseas products. My blood is boiling right now, so sick of people blaming crazy shlt on Trump that in no way has or had anything to do with him, guy makes a pretty good mess at times by himself, he dont need b.s. blamed on him... I had not been able to find a full time job since 2009, guess what...I have one now and getting overtime....Wife can work all the hours she wants.....More and more families are getting paid better, more are now employed, there has been no appocalypse, so far so much better, oh and you arent forced to pay for insurance you dont want.

 

[pw91686 10+ year member]

Seems they are going to be making some Kodas again. They contacted me because they haven’t been able to find an original koda and Dan had lost the engineering files of them. So this weekend I am sending them the one that I have for testing and they should begin production of them within the next few months. 

This bad boy was actually going to be installed in my s2000 in 2 weeks, now it is being sent to Andrew and Dan. Now probably using a brand new infinity kappa perfect 10.1 I still have. 

 

[honkyg^2]

I don’t think Dan is that involved.

Ohh, he sure as heck is. He still owns the xbl2 patent. He also had months of conferring with the new owners as to the direction they want to take with his brainchild for him to be sure it will not turn into another mass produced product banking on the namesake to drive sales.

This was somewhat a clause I was informed of when a few associates and I were looking to buy the company on consignment through pat back in '12.

I am rather elated to see adire coming back to the forefront with Dan still involved, even if it's minimally. 

It is also of great personal importance knowing adire products will make "built proudly in the usa" mean something again.

Just my .02