Adire Audio is back!

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Do they still have distortion when they get to far outside of the fs?

Grossly oversimplified, Fs can be of some concern if it's somewhat high in combination with a high Q (as the result of low moving mass and low BL product) and you're trying too play low. That usually doesn't sound very good because that particular mass/compliance relationship doesn't naturally want to operate lower than Fs, while the low force motor is probably the reason for the high Q and as such is not up to task to force or control the operation below Fs. You will get tall odd-order harmonics and run into thermal issues in that case if you really try to push them. Now a somewhat high Fs in conjunction with a low to medium Q (as the result of low moving mass and a high BL product) will be okay because the motor will be able to force the operation below Fs assuming the spiders are not too stiff. Now a somewhat high Fs in combination with low to medium Q (as the result of high moving mass with stiff spiders and a high BL product) is still okay for operation below Fs but it will sound different than the other driver and thermal issues are possible. I will stop there since a lot of this is subjective, application dependent, and way off topic.
Regarding the W7, I'd be more concerned with the back EMF from the current being dumped into the coil, dynamically changing the magnetic center and effectively moving the apparent physical location of the top plate, and therefore the flux pattern that the coil relies on for a static magnetic position to start from. The importance of the relationship between a magnetic coil and stabilized flux field cannot be overstated, doesn't matter how high in frequency you intend to use the driver.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

To your point, I would say yes. They do. Will everyone notice the benefits? No. So I think we can safely chalk that up as a win for you. In the XBL motors you can add flux stabilizing rings that will not eat into motor force product because you don't need to make the gap any wider to do that. But even if you add a sleeve, it doesn't need to be so terribly thick that it makes or breaks the overall Qts because of a wider gap. Just something to help negate the inherent inductance of the coil, even if just a little.
Which brings me to answering, or rather venturing a guess, the other question as to why they didn't/don't use the parts you and I have mentioned. I believe they were ruled as cost prohibitive simply to protect the bottom line for the business vision and for the reason I already conceded to above; the larger demographic simply wouldn't notice the marginal increase in subjective performance. I can respect and appreciate that, but can't help wanting a more refined product from Adire since at the heart of everything is one of the greatest linear BL motors ever conceived. By all rights, scaled up and refined it should be outstripping the LMS platform in every single category (and that's saying a lot coming from me). It could, but it doesn't.

I hope you're right, I hope Dan Wiggins did have a hand in getting things going once again. But I also hope there is someone on that ship that will venture into new territory with that motor. Take a risk. Space the gaps further apart, make them a bit taller for more B. Stretch the coil a bit to accommodate that design, make a new monster. But FFS, use parts that are up to that task. And stop wasting time with the Shiva and Tempest designs as long as they are not XBL. That's pointless unless it's simply for nostalgia.

I've seen the topic of inductance and shorting rings beat to death with no clear answer. Did the old Adire use them? They certainly existed then, why did Wiggins opt to use them or not? Certainly I'd like to see some more innovation with the platform but that's what's going to cost. R&D and prototyping will be the big cost.

I expect the inclusion of lower end products is the hope that they'll sell a lot more inexpensive products. I'll wager Sundown sells SA series woofers at 100:1 ratio to Z's and 1000:1 to Team drivers. Making a good sounding entry level driver is a good move and should be your bread and butter, but I think they missed the mark with the price point there and should probably have considered outsourcing such a line to China if they want to compete in that arena.

 

[macsdad 10+ year member]

Impressive conversations you two eggheads are having here. I do miss my tc tc2000 12's, very clean and somewhat loud, not that I was trying for loud. My current 12 does pretty good, again not looking for loud, but it is in a tiny box, .55cuft after displacement. I was wanting back what the tc's gave me, and the si hst12mkll is satisfying.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

...

FWIW
Here's the XBL driver I've been dreaming of, lol. It was the prototype workup for the MKII SDX15. I believe they gave up on it due to the cost involved for upping the strength of the motor. Thread here. --> https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/creative-sound-solutions/34213-sdx15-mk-ii-27.html#post513820

There's another thread someplace about a workup on an 18" version with 3 gaps. I feel like they should make a Steallus XBL hybrid, it might be more cost effective without the need for all that metal. Neo is a bit more reasonable these days. I also hope they get the sense to use spaced spiders because these designs are prone to coil rock with the gaps being tighter.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

And where is this one from Sundown? It's just beautiful. Fs of 23Hz and BL of 30.7 N/A!

JF Signature SQ-12 (Rev.2) Prototype - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

 

[macsdad 10+ year member]

And where is this one from Sundown? It's just beautiful. Fs of 23Hz and BL of 30.7 N/A!
JF Signature SQ-12 (Rev.2) Prototype - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Now that is a good looking subwoofer.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

FWIW
Here's the XBL driver I've been dreaming of, lol. It was the prototype workup for the MKII SDX15. I believe they gave up on it due to the cost involved for upping the strength of the motor. Thread here. --> https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/creative-sound-solutions/34213-sdx15-mk-ii-27.html#post513820

There's another thread someplace about a workup on an 18" version with 3 gaps. I feel like they should make a Steallus XBL hybrid, it might be more cost effective without the need for all that metal. Neo is a bit more reasonable these days. I also hope they get the sense to use spaced spiders because these designs are prone to coil rock with the gaps being tighter.

So explain it to someone who isn't that well read on the topic of XBL^2, how is that different than any other split gap?

Also FYI I just pulled the trigger on a pile of those LTO cells that the fella in Russia is using. It'll be 4-5 weeks shipping then probably a couple more weeks to order some copper and buss them together, get my alternator regulated to 18V and actually try them out.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

So explain it to someone who isn't that well read on the topic of XBL^2, how is that different than any other split gap?
Also FYI I just pulled the trigger on a pile of those LTO cells that the fella in Russia is using. It'll be 4-5 weeks shipping then probably a couple more weeks to order some copper and buss them together, get my alternator regulated to 18V and actually try them out.

Nice, I hope that all comes together as planned. Should be the end of any electrical concerns for you, no?
As far as the prototype driver pictured above, I don't believe it's any different as far as the split gap technology goes. Single coil with tandem gaps. It's just set up for lots of excursion and uses better parts. I think the only thing approaching what should really be possible from XBL is what Jacob is working on above. I can imagine it will be costly, though. Might be able to buy a pair or two of the new SDX12 for the same or less money and come out ahead, we'll have to see.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Now that is a good looking subwoofer.

Couldn't agree more, Jacob should be very proud.

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

Wow. A lot of memories. Dan, Thilo, Thor's Hammer's, when Jacob put all his chips in...

The one thing I took from all this is an agreeance with Ciaonzo that most subs could stand to be more mechanically sturdy. I rarely burn up coils. I simpily tear the sub apart from mechanical limits.

That said I've always loved the names of Adire's subs. Goes hand in hand with a book I'm reading.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Nice, I hope that all comes together as planned. Should be the end of any electrical concerns for you, no?
As far as the prototype driver pictured above, I don't believe it's any different as far as the split gap technology goes. Single coil with tandem gaps. It's just set up for lots of excursion and uses better parts. I think the only thing approaching what should really be possible from XBL is what Jacob is working on above. I can imagine it will be costly, though. Might be able to buy a pair or two of the new SDX12 for the same or less money and come out ahead, we'll have to see.

Well, that Sundown prototype was 3 years ago and still no production model. Safe to say that line of design didn't get far for one reason or another. At 1000$ MSRP I don't think you'd sell many.

I'm hoping these new batteries keep me going for at least 5 years. Still not exactly sure what configuration either of us will use so may or may not need to add more cells but still I'm pretty sold on the LTO in general and believe it or not the Chinese technology there is looking pretty good considering what other projects their big LTO manufacturers have accomplished. Megawatt storage on power grids for one, another project is using these for electric bus fleets, the catch being they have a small bank that's only good for 20-40 minutes run time but they can be charged at every stop in the time it takes passengers board and exit.

Anyway, like I told the guy in China, if these perform even half of rated claims I'll be happy and the results of that fella in Russia are very encouraging.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Wow. A lot of memories. Dan, Thilo, Thor's Hammer's, when Jacob put all his chips in...
The one thing I took from all this is an agreeance with Ciaonzo that most subs could stand to be more mechanically sturdy. I rarely burn up coils. I simpily tear the sub apart from mechanical limits.

That said I've always loved the names of Adire's subs. Goes hand in hand with a book I'm reading.

What book you readin', bro?

Well, that Sundown prototype was 3 years ago and still no production model. Safe to say that line of design didn't get far for one reason or another. At 1000$ MSRP I don't think you'd sell many.
I'm hoping these new batteries keep me going for at least 5 years. Still not exactly sure what configuration either of us will use so may or may not need to add more cells but still I'm pretty sold on the LTO in general and believe it or not the Chinese technology there is looking pretty good considering what other projects their big LTO manufacturers have accomplished. Megawatt storage on power grids for one, another project is using these for electric bus fleets, the catch being they have a small bank that's only good for 20-40 minutes run time but they can be charged at every stop in the time it takes passengers board and exit.

Anyway, like I told the guy in China, if these perform even half of rated claims I'll be happy and the results of that fella in Russia are very encouraging.

I'm pretty confident it will still hit the market since he's posted in the thread this year. I'm hopeful, anyway. And I'll have to buy it on principle because I've been in his ear more than once about rubber surrounds and shorting rings. Not saying he introduced rubber surrounds or shorting rings just because I mentioned it, but I joked with him that once he started implementing those things I would start buying his drivers. I haven't bought any Sundown drivers yet, lol. The way I see it, by now I should own the little 6.5 monster and the underhung SD3 8" or 10", those things are nice. And, of course, this new XBL driver if/when it drops. I'm actually really impressed with most of the recent Sundown drivers. It's great to see how far Jacob & company have come in the past 10 years.
Keep us posted on those batteries, I plan to do the same thing on a smaller scale.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

What book you readin', bro?
I'm pretty confident it will still hit the market since he's posted in the thread this year. I'm hopeful, anyway. And I'll have to buy it on principle because I've been in his ear more than once about rubber surrounds and shorting rings. Not saying he introduced rubber surrounds or shorting rings just because I mentioned it, but I joked with him that once he started implementing those things I would start buying his drivers. I haven't bought any Sundown drivers yet, lol. The way I see it, by now I should own the little 6.5 monster and the underhung SD3 8" or 10", those things are nice. And, of course, this new XBL driver if/when it drops. I'm actually really impressed with most of the recent Sundown drivers. It's great to see how far Jacob & company have come in the past 10 years.

Keep us posted on those batteries, I plan to do the same thing on a smaller scale.

Alpine S is underhung and cheap

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Alpine S is underhung and cheap

Indeed, a sleeper of a driver for those who are budget-minded. I reckon those have the potential to sound better than plenty of other drivers costing more.

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

What book you readin', bro?
.