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<blockquote data-quote="hispls" data-source="post: 8652675" data-attributes="member: 614752">Learn to differentiate mythos and logos.&nbsp; There doesn&#039;t have to be an ant who works hard and saves for the winter and a grasshopper who plays the fiddle for that tale to be true.&nbsp; Whether or not the rank and file of any faith take the mythos literally or not I suspect the priest class or adepts understand that most of it is supposed to be allegory and parable only.&nbsp; Recurring themes should be taken as trying to illustrate important truths about human nature and not so much as an account of historical events.First of all, apart from the early run fiasco with glue failure I don&#039;t think anybody is breaking those big surround cones.&nbsp; The original Z cones were prone to failure around the surrounds under abuse, the new ones can take anything you&#039;ll throw at them.&nbsp; I suspect if you were trying you&#039;d break the triple joint first.&nbsp;&nbsp; Re-read my anecdote of my friend with the 12s.&nbsp; He was breaking zv2 cones so we switched to the new style cones and he did not break them (but lost 1.4dB)As to cone materials, they are super cheap any way you slice it.&nbsp; Even &quot;expensive&quot; made in USA cones will only be 12-16$ a whack or so (provided you&#039;re buying them by the 1000), Chinese ones 3-4$ each(possibly double that with shipping costs).&nbsp; Still though I find it hard to believe anybody is using an inferior surround for the sake of savingThat said, where do we draw the line of acceptable efficiency loss for the sake of &quot;power is cheap so let&#039;s make it mechanically indestructible&quot;?&nbsp;&nbsp; Truck on over to DIYMA and tell me how many of those guys are throwing more than 1200W into a single driver.&nbsp;&nbsp; How many home theater guys run more than that?&nbsp;&nbsp; How often do you run more than 1200W into a 3&quot; coil woofer?&nbsp; You would be hard pressed to break a 3&quot; coil woofer 12&quot; or larger on 1200W unclipped even on a standard 12 spoke frame.&nbsp; Beyond that, look at what you really gain.&nbsp;&nbsp; Adding 50% more excursion = 1.5dB (one click of the volume knob).&nbsp; For how much extra cost in parts?&nbsp; How much efficiency did you lose with all the mass you just added and cone area you sacrificed?&nbsp;&nbsp; At what point is a better/cheaper brute force approach to trying to cheat Hoffman to just cram a larger cone into the smaller box then accept that inefficiency?Whether you care about numbers or not that is what you&#039;re after.&nbsp;&nbsp; A certain level of output that can be directly translated into an SPL score, and as &quot;cheap&quot; as power is, it&#039;s not really because electrical upgrades to run &quot;cheap&quot; big amps add up quick and they take up precious space and add weight to the vehicle.I absolutely understand and respect what you&#039;re doing, I enjoyed my time low/flat tuning but for me I found besides some pipe organ tracks and watching movies I never used those wind-tunnel notes.&nbsp;&nbsp; I&#039;m perfectly happy to sacrifice everything below 35hz for the sake of efficiency and output in the bandwidth my preferred music plays.&nbsp; That said, I&#039;d trade out 4 of my neo Sigs even-up for some LMS 5400s and roll with them for a while if I had the opportunity and modify my port to tune @25hz.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="hispls, post: 8652675, member: 614752"] Learn to differentiate mythos and logos. There doesn't have to be an ant who works hard and saves for the winter and a grasshopper who plays the fiddle for that tale to be true. Whether or not the rank and file of any faith take the mythos literally or not I suspect the priest class or adepts understand that most of it is supposed to be allegory and parable only. Recurring themes should be taken as trying to illustrate important truths about human nature and not so much as an account of historical events. First of all, apart from the early run fiasco with glue failure I don't think anybody is breaking those big surround cones. The original Z cones were prone to failure around the surrounds under abuse, the new ones can take anything you'll throw at them. I suspect if you were trying you'd break the triple joint first. Re-read my anecdote of my friend with the 12s. He was breaking zv2 cones so we switched to the new style cones and he did not break them (but lost 1.4dB) As to cone materials, they are super cheap any way you slice it. Even "expensive" made in USA cones will only be 12-16$ a whack or so (provided you're buying them by the 1000), Chinese ones 3-4$ each(possibly double that with shipping costs). Still though I find it hard to believe anybody is using an inferior surround for the sake of saving That said, where do we draw the line of acceptable efficiency loss for the sake of "power is cheap so let's make it mechanically indestructible"? Truck on over to DIYMA and tell me how many of those guys are throwing more than 1200W into a single driver. How many home theater guys run more than that? How often do you run more than 1200W into a 3" coil woofer? You would be hard pressed to break a 3" coil woofer 12" or larger on 1200W unclipped even on a standard 12 spoke frame. Beyond that, look at what you really gain. Adding 50% more excursion = 1.5dB (one click of the volume knob). For how much extra cost in parts? How much efficiency did you lose with all the mass you just added and cone area you sacrificed? At what point is a better/cheaper brute force approach to trying to cheat Hoffman to just cram a larger cone into the smaller box then accept that inefficiency? Whether you care about numbers or not that is what you're after. A certain level of output that can be directly translated into an SPL score, and as "cheap" as power is, it's not really because electrical upgrades to run "cheap" big amps add up quick and they take up precious space and add weight to the vehicle. I absolutely understand and respect what you're doing, I enjoyed my time low/flat tuning but for me I found besides some pipe organ tracks and watching movies I never used those wind-tunnel notes. I'm perfectly happy to sacrifice everything below 35hz for the sake of efficiency and output in the bandwidth my preferred music plays. That said, I'd trade out 4 of my neo Sigs even-up for some LMS 5400s and roll with them for a while if I had the opportunity and modify my port to tune @25hz. [/QUOTE]

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