Acoustic Elegance AV15

[kendogg 10+ year member]

Pattern im not seeing? Please explain. John let me beat on that sub, he said he had no problem if it blew and I tried for it. The sub was fine after hours of abuse. I dont see that changing in a week specially if the parameters werent changing at all after abuse.

:shrug. OK. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I don't know you at all, so please don't take it personally. I'll finalize by simply saying good luck to anybody buying one of these drivers.

 

[bumpin buick 5,000+ posts]

I'm not trying to argue, but better understand where the problems have arose from. John told me you guys had these problems with the sub/s:

• The sub had no output at 70hz, so I beat on it with 70-75hz tones and it had no problem and had great output.
   
  
• The sub would not play a song for 30sec at 1000wrms. I did a song for over a minute with nearly double the power, no problem.
   
  
• The cone would fold over high excursion or have non-linear motions. I played tones down to the mid 20s which clearly excurted the sub to a point I would call its limit. The sub never scratched, never threw the coil, never had linear problems, and never over heated.
  

Im simply unable to re-enact the problems that you guys have claimed, I have been trying to do so but can not. Im sure if I clip the signal well enough, I can come up with results similar to yours but that is all I can really think of to get matching results.

 

[negative3five 10+ year member]

The shorted out cone failure shld b a moot point he addressed that problem, didn't your driver have metal in the gap? and papermaker lmao he failed at life with that driver so what failers besides them 3 are you talking about if you want somethign that hits the highs go buy a Kickers CVX and one of thier prefab boxes tuned in the upper 50's u'll be happy till then just stfu about thier woofers. Yea your orion nt's hit the highs better because back then the subs were geared more towards highs and not low end extension.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

I'm not trying to argue, but better understand where the problems have arose from. John told me you guys had these problems with the sub/s:

• The sub had no output at 70hz, so I beat on it with 70-75hz tones and it had no problem and had great output.
  
• The sub would not play a song for 30sec at 1000wrms. I did a song for over a minute with nearly double the power, no problem.
   
  
• The cone would fold over high excursion or have non-linear motions. I played tones down to the mid 20s which clearly excurted the sub to a point I would call its limit. The sub never scratched, never threw the coil, never had linear problems, and never over heated.
  

Im simply unable to re-enact the problems that you guys have claimed, I have been trying to do so but can not. Im sure if I clip the signal well enough, I can come up with results similar to yours but that is all I can really think of to get matching results.

The bolded one was my main ***** with the driver itself. I am FAR from the only person who has experienced this, and I have yet to experience it with any other driver. Like I said, you should try running it in the recommended enclosure before passing judgement on how well it does up top. There are multiple people who have sat in my car (1 or 2 well known on CAF as well) that can attest to the fact that it completely fell on it's face up top. With some rock songs, you would not know there was a subwoofer in the car if somebody didn't tell you (not because it was so well balanced that it blended so well, because I couldn't f'ing hear it).

Once I started feeding it full power from my amp (Punch 25 to Life Punch 150, birthsheet claimed ~1020 rms, which I believe, especially when compared to the output with other amps I've owned), I started hearing the ocassional tapping sound from the driver. At first, I thought it was bottoming out. John said it was my amp clipping, and I needed more power. So, I bought a bigger amp. Needed to have the sub re-coned into a D2 at the minimum. Hence my post here, asking if I should recone, or 'upgrade' to the TD 18H+ (STILL, at this time, considering nothing but one of John's drivers). Then it all went downhill from there.

Why do I feel like I'm constantly having to repeat myself, ****. Nobody beleived me that I was having issues when I told them. I showed people, and they finally believed. Papermaker made fun of me and did not believe I was having issues. It specs out great on paper. He got the driver in his hands, used it for a day or 2, and goes '**** - maybe kenny was right afterall'. This is getting old. You people have fun with your POS drivers, I've made my points, I've presented facts, and I've presented PLENTY of evidence of how flippy-floppy John is when it comes to standing behind his products, and the way he treats his customers when they have an issue. Make your own decisions.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

The shorted out cone failure shld b a moot point he addressed that problem, didn't your driver have metal in the gap? and papermaker lmao he failed at life with that driver so what failers besides them 3 are you talking about if you want somethign that hits the highs go buy a Kickers CVX and one of thier prefab boxes tuned in the upper 50's u'll be happy till then just stfu about thier woofers. Yea your orion nt's hit the highs better because back then the subs were geared more towards highs and not low end extension.

Have any suggestions as to what drivers might compare to the awesome old Orions, particularly the XTR Series 2's?? And no, I'm not going to STFU. APretty much anything Kicker sounds like dogshit. I'll have my (4) ED 11Ov2's in this weekend. We'll see how they do. Somehow, I have a feling they'll be significantly better than the AV.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Have any suggestions as to what drivers might compare to the awesome old Orions, particularly the XTR Series 2's?? And no, I'm not going to STFU. APretty much anything Kicker sounds like dogshit. I'll have my (4) ED 11Ov2's in this weekend. We'll see how they do. Somehow, I have a feling they'll be significantly better than the AV.

Because eD certainly doesn't have any spider issues or a questionable CS base.

You're right though, to each his own.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

Because eD certainly doesn't have any spider issues or a questionable CS base.
You're right though, to each his own.

While true, I've owned ED drivers before, and for the price/performance ratio, I'm wiling to put my money on them, and I know if I'm screwed, I'm screwed, and thats that. It was between these, or the new JL W0v2's (I LOVED the original W0's, I've had over a dozen of them in different varieties). This has taught me a lesson. Never again will I purchase a driver I've never heard in person.

 

[negative3five 10+ year member]

I think ED's AV series has the softest spider I have ever used period lol, and how can you put sq and 70hz in the same sentance? You want a driver thats gonna play high freq. look for something with min xmax and a smaller mag like your old school orions or a kicker cvx. You want something to play that high so thier you go go grab a kicker in thier prefab and your golden. I think you just used to all the MTX, KICKER, PIONEER best buy circuit city subs in thier prefab boxs thats what it sounds like to me. I dunno anybody else feel that way when he describes what hes looking for in a woofer? You might wanna think about what you want out of a subwoofer because I can make a list of everthing I own and 90% of them I never crossed over 60hz. That or make the rest of your system competent to keep up with your woofer. You should adressed your midbass first before the subwoofer for the spectrum you wanna play.

 

[negative3five 10+ year member]

here http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=286444 Thats a old out dated list but basicly covers 3/4's of what everyone on this forum is gonna compare the AV to. Out of that list id suggest the Sundown SD10 for you or a sub that is about the same physical magnet size. From my testing smaller built subs liek that kill the uppers way better then all the heavier subs available. I would consider the AV a bigger motor but def. a powerful one and not what you looking for. Also any sub from the Orion XTR era will kill the highs I'd bet the old round kickers would be even better lol...And basicly this is the same problem people were having with the MAG when they first came out with thier new one intill they got it hammered into thier head what a sq driver was not what they thought it was and the DIYMA subwoofer. People complain about blowing both of them but didn't wanna follow the recomended specs they want to throw 1500 watts to em just to say they were.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

I think ED's AV series has the softest spider I have ever used period lol, and how can you put sq and 70hz in the same sentance? You want a driver thats gonna play high freq. look for something with min xmax and a smaller mag like your old school orions or a kicker cvx. You want something to play that high so thier you go go grab a kicker in thier prefab and your golden. I think you just used to all the MTX, KICKER, PIONEER best buy circuit city subs in thier prefab boxs thats what it sounds like to me. I dunno anybody else feel that way when he describes what hes looking for in a woofer? You might wanna think about what you want out of a subwoofer because I can make a list of everthing I own and 90% of them I never crossed over 60hz. That or make the rest of your system competent to keep up with your woofer. You should adressed your midbass first before the subwoofer for the spectrum you wanna play.

Uhhh - stop judging me on what I've used. FWIW, I've NEVER used a pre-fab's box, and the only Best Buy subs I've owned were RF HE2's, and a Pioneer 304C when they were the big forum boner years ago (worked at BB in '01, so employee discount was stupid low). I've used ALOT of drivers, and alot of nice drivers at that (I added them up the other night, over 50 from what I can remember at least).

And you keep missing the fact that I've never had this problem with other drivers, and that I am NOT THE ONLY PERSON who has experienced this with these drivers. I'm not looking for much in a subwoofer. I want something that will punch me in the chest with some drummin bass, or when I throw in System of a Down, etc. You couldn't even hear the AV on Chop Suey. I've had plenty of other setups that would do that.

Lets see how many of the drivers I've owned I can remember (in no particular order):

JL 10W0 in multiple VC varieties (at least 9)

JL 12W0-12 (3)

Holywood Excursion 12's (2)

Kicker Solobaric (round) 8" (1)

Kicker Solobaric (round) 10" (1)

Kicker XPL 12 (1)

Kicker Comp VR 12 (2)

Orion XTR Series 2 12's (3)

Orion XTR Series 2 10" (6)

Orion XTR 10d (2)

ED 12k (v1) (1)

ED 10k (2003 e-cone) (2)

ED 12k (forget which version) (1)

RF HE 10" (2)

RF HE2 10" (2)

Pioneer 304c 12" (1)

Random Audiobahn 12 (blew with a Punch 40i somehow) (1)

RE RE8's (2)

ED 11Ov2 (4)

AE AV15 (1)

DIYMA 12(1)

I need to go thru some old pics and see if I can figure out what else I've owned. Thats all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

 

[negative3five 10+ year member]

I know the DIYMA 12 played higher freq and so does the Mag but they def wern't as loud at the lower freq I kno you have to agree wit me here on that. The RF's I can't hate on I owned them to but back then they were a diff company. The JLs and kickers will def play the highers better been thier done that. I'm not sayin you a noob all i'm sayin is the sound and performance you want out of a sub is based on a dif market segment then the subs that are mainly marketed on here... The sub you want is a smaller motored sub like the older jl's rf's kickers ect. From my experience subs built like that low power low excursion def. play the highs way better then most of the over motored build subs on here. And the way he rates the AV isn't any diff then how SI rates the mag or how the DIYMA rates thier sub thier great with 500-800 watts but can hold 1000 max. It's just a market segment thats not built error proof.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

I know the DIYMA 12 played higher freq and so does the Mag but they def wern't as loud at the lower freq I kno you have to agree wit me here on that. The RF's I can't hate on I owned them to but back then they were a diff company. The JLs and kickers will def play the highers better been thier done that. I'm not sayin you a noob all i'm sayin is the sound and performance you want out of a sub is based on a dif market segment then then subs that are mainly marketed on here...

Understandable. And I'm starting to see that. The DIYMA12 actually sounded very similar to the AV, no matter where I put it in the car, nothing up top. Not quite as clear, not as transient, and certainly not as loud. OTOH, the only single sealed 12" enclosure I had to put it in was 1 ft.^3 too, so I attribute alot of that to that..... I only gave it about ~10 minutes of playtime too before I put it right back in it's box and listed it for sale. I didn't need to listen long to know it wasn't what I wanted.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Understandable. And I'm starting to see that. The DIYMA12 actually sounded very similar to the AV, no matter where I put it in the car, nothing up top. Not quite as clear, not as transient, and certainly not as loud. OTOH, the only single sealed 12" enclosure I had to put it in was 1 ft.^3 too, so I attribute alot of that to that..... I only gave it about ~10 minutes of playtime too before I put it right back in it's box and listed it for sale. I didn't need to listen long to know it wasn't what I wanted.

It's very clear at this point that if you've had two of the lowest inductance drivers available in your vehicle and you still don't have anything up top, even when you were running a tiny sealed enclosure, your vehicle is responsible for your response profile. You should measure your transfer function using something that has been measured either outdoors or with the ground plane method as a reference to see exactly what is going on in your vehicle. And as mentioned before, look into some very capable frontstage drivers that have authority in the low frequency region to possibly shift your crossover point downward.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

It's very clear at this point that if you've had two of the lowest inductance drivers available in your vehicle and you still don't have anything up top, even when you were running a tiny sealed enclosure, your vehicle is responsible for your response profile. You should measure your transfer function using something that has been measured either outdoors or with the ground plane method as a reference to see exactly what is going on in your vehicle. And as mentioned before, look into some very capable frontstage drivers that have authority in the low frequency region to possibly shift your crossover point downward.

Tiny sealed enclosure?? 1 cube is HUGE for a DIYMA12. And again, for the 15th time, YOU'VE MISSED THE POINT. My Orion 12 DOES NOT have this problem. I DO NOT envision the 11Ov2's having this issue either. Something Sandt38 had told me, that was told to him by Dan Wiggins, was that all these low-inductance driver designs are KNOWN to lack upper-frequency extension in-car. To say that I don't like the FR of a low-inductance driver is a fairly accurate conclusion.

I don't have the tools, or the time to be measuring the TF of my car. I work 6 days a week, ~60-70 hours a week. If I can drop in a different driver that takes care of my problems, I think that takes care of the problem, no?? Seems funny that the designer claims his driver is so flat, yet tells everybody they need to be EQ'ing down the low end...........

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Tiny sealed enclosure?? 1 cube is HUGE for a DIYMA12. And again, for the 15th time, YOU'VE MISSED THE POINT. My Orion 12 DOES NOT have this problem. I DO NOT envision the 11Ov2's having this issue either. Something Sandt38 had told me, that was told to him by Dan Wiggins, was that all these low-inductance driver designs are KNOWN to lack upper-frequency extension in-car. To say that I don't like the FR of a low-inductance driver is a fairly accurate conclusion.
I don't have the tools, or the time to be measuring the TF of my car. I work 6 days a week, ~60-70 hours a week. If I can drop in a different driver that takes care of my problems, I think that takes care of the problem, no?? Seems funny that the designer claims his driver is so flat, yet tells everybody they need to be EQ'ing down the low end...........

Fair enough. Knowing that other drivers will cater to your vehicle's response profile, I would also just drop in a different driver and call it a day.

As far as the reference to the tiny sealed enclosure, I was concentrating on the Fc for the volume of 1cu.ft but you're right, 1 cube is relatively large to the DIYMA. I haven't played with that driver and had forgotten about the Vas.

I hope you find what you're looking for and it remains a reliable solution.