Acoustic Elegance AV12-X D2!

[kendogg 10+ year member]

Also there has been No complaints from the home theater community where they run the subs at 1000w on extremely low frequencies.

Room.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

You did listen to part of what I suggested. However when it came time to moving the enclosure or adjusting the phase with respect to your front stage you refused and said that "I shouldn't have to do that much work." Keep in mind that I spent literally hours talking to you about many things but you didn't follow through on what would have given you good results.
Listening to part of what someone tells you to do will often get you disastrous results. If you were to go sky diving, got in the plane, put on the backpack, did everything they said, but forgot to pull the parachute open when they told you, look where you'd be.

Again, go back and read the things in this thread and the others. I clearly explained why you had the upper end issues, how to correct them, and potentially why this other driver doesn't have the same issue at the same frequency due to phase differences.

John

I didn't refuse, I dont have phase adjustment. Not THAT many amps do. My HU has a phase shift. I didn't notice any difference from that. I also didn't see any increase in upper end output no matter how high I turned up the LP xover. As I also mentioned, you're right, I did say you shouldn't have to do this much work. Who in the hell wants to play with mic's and EQ's or RTA's, or w/e else to have a decent subwoofer in my car? Like papermaker, I've owned 50+ subwoofers in my life and have never had this issue before. Does that mean your driver is THAT much different from everybody elses that it needs an immense amount of work and design thought to make it sound decent in a car? Joel is right - It's your drivers. If you want to cater to some niche market, go for it, but quit trying to push your idea's that your drivers are the best SQL driver on the market for every scenario. They clearly aren't.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Wait a min here.. Papermaker fed the sub 1600w and Destroyed it and john gave him 200 dollars back.
Dont mislead people. My sub performs just fine and I've ran it two days straight. Same time papermaker ran his. Im pretty sure the only reason why his broke was that he was giving it too much power.

Also there has been No complaints from the home theater community where they run the subs at 1000w on extremely low frequencies.

You either just got a bad batch or didn't properly set it up. These subs may be more delicate than all out car subs.

Also to NDMstang65, i hear a difference real world between this driver and MANY others. So i don't know what made the difference but it is noticeable and audible to my ears..

with 1600 there is no way it should have been damaged...john will agree...

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

I didn't refuse, I dont have phase adjustment. Not THAT many amps do. My HU has a phase shift. I didn't notice any difference from that. I also didn't see any increase in upper end output no matter how high I turned up the LP xover. As I also mentioned, you're right, I did say you shouldn't have to do this much work. Who in the hell wants to play with mic's and EQ's or RTA's, or w/e else to have a decent subwoofer in my car? Like papermaker, I've owned 50+ subwoofers in my life and have never had this issue before. Does that mean your driver is THAT much different from everybody elses that it needs an immense amount of work and design thought to make it sound decent in a car? Joel is right - It's your drivers. If you want to cater to some niche market, go for it, but quit trying to push your idea's that your drivers are the best SQL driver on the market for every scenario. They clearly aren't.

I believe that in the immense field of audio, sound quality is the majority, making the niche SPL. Gain perspective.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

I believe that in the immense field of audio, sound quality is the majority, making the niche SPL. Gain perspective.

You clearly didn't read the post very well. That, or I'm stressed out at work and delusional and not making sense //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

with 1600 there is no way it should have been damaged...john will agree...

I am fairly certain that you would damage the sub at 1600w RMS. The excursion i am getting right now close to 800w RMS is a lot, to push it 800w more would most certainly cause damage.

However i do believe that thermally the sub will handle 1600w rms...

To clarify i am talking about 800w peaks with dynamic music, not tones. And im not talking about tuning the amp to 800w, i mean ACTUAL 800w when the music is playing.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

I am fairly certain that you would damage the sub at 1600w RMS. The excursion i am getting right now close to 800w RMS is a lot, to push it 800w more would most certainly cause damage.
However i do believe that thermally the sub will handle 1600w rms...

To clarify i am talking about 800w peaks with dynamic music, not tones. And im not talking about tuning the amp to 800w, i mean ACTUAL 800w when the music is playing.

your using a box thats .2 smaller for a 12 note i have a 15...

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Im just saying, 1600w IS a lot of power and from what i have seen from this driver, 1600w rms playing dynamic music would cause failure. 1600w rms with tones may be another story and i can let john chime in with that if he wants as i dont burp.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

As a measured example of how placement affects phase and then response, here are the measurments from Bose301's Magv4 in his blazer. The light blue curve was the original placement. There is a huge peak at just under 50hz followed by a large dip at about 88hz. The difference in magnitude between these two points is 45dB! This will make it sound like the woofer is not even playing at all as many people experience. The dark blue curve is the flattest placement. This is simply changing the same woofer in the same box to firing upwards. A lot of the bump below 70hz was decreased and the bump at 88hz came up significantly.

There is still a large amount of extra low end, but the apparent difference is now only 18dB vs 45dB. All that was done was to change the position of the box in the vehicle.

John

Now, you've even made posts in the past stating that you wouldn't even honor warranties for drivers firing up or down, due to the 'sag' caused by gravity over time. Why is this even an option for you then?? Thats right, because it happens to fit for your current argument //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif

 

[jonathan demuth]

Now, you've even made posts in the past stating that you wouldn't even honor warranties for drivers firing up or down, due to the 'sag' caused by gravity over time. Why is this even an option for you then?? Thats right, because it happens to fit for your current argument //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif

hold up.. I know nothing of the situation, BUT if this is true that is PATHETIC.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

hold up.. I know nothing of the situation, BUT if this is true that is PATHETIC.

Give me some time, I'm going to have to search thru pretty much every post John's ever made on CAF to find it, but he has certainly said it. I'll link it when I find it, unless he decides to own up to it here.

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

hold up.. I know nothing of the situation, BUT if this is true that is PATHETIC.

Found it.

http://caraudioforum.com/showpost.php?p=2116228&postcount=20

just a quick note on up or downfiring a woofer. Any woofer when firing up or down will have an immediate bias to the suspension. The coil starts in an off center position. This is not good for linearity at all and will cause some extra distortion due to not having the same amount of force on the coil in both directions. In addition to this, if you have it firing up, gravity works with the force of the motor on the downward stroke and against it on the upward stroke, further making it non-linear. The same in a downfiring. Over time the suspension will bias more and more and it becomes more and more non-linear. You will end up running into suspension limits quicker in one direction than the other limiting your excursion capability. To make that all worse a biased spider is something that voids the warranty policy with every manufacturer I have ever seen. It comes under the line of improper use as the driver was never intended to operate with the coil off center.

 

[jonathan demuth]

nice.

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

Give me some time, I'm going to have to search thru pretty much every post John's ever made on CAF to find it, but he has certainly said it. I'll link it when I find it, unless he decides to own up to it here.

I'll save you some time and link to our warranty policy. If you were to compare it to most all warranties out there you'll see that must just state they don't cover abuse. This leaves the door wide open for them to claim anything they want as abuse and not repair the driver. We go into a little more specific detail.

http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/shipping.php

The following issues are considered abuse and do not constitute a warranty claim:

Open voice coil

Burnt or charred voice coil

Bottomed voice coil

Out-gassed voice coil

Voice Coil with a bent former

Burnt tinsel leads

Spider sag

Speakers with silicone caulk used for gasket material

Damaged cone, surround, dustcap, or outer gasket

Damage caused by exposure to excessive heat, chemicals, water, and/or UV radiation

Damage caused by installation slips (screwdriver holes)

Damage caused by negligence, misuse, accident, or abuse

Damage caused during freight or transit

Return shipping on non-defective item

Other items or merchandise to which an Acoustic Elegance LLC product was installed, or used in conjunction with

Other items not manufactured by Acoustic Elegance LLC

Items previously repaired or modified by other than Acoustic Elegance LLC

I should clarify though. What you are referring to is the point about spider sag and my comments in the past. Any woofer will sag gradually over time if fired up or down. There is no way around that. You have an initial amount of sag that you can calculate from a formula based on Mms and Cms. Over time though ANY suspension on ANY woofer is going to get more and more biased due to the acceleration of gravity continually acting on the suspension. The softer the suspension, the more initial sag and the greater the increased sag over time.

You just can't get around the effects of gravity. This is that same reason people happen to get shorter in their old age because gravity is continually acting on their bodies. Their spines will compress or bend due to 80+ years of this force of gravity.

Ideally you would always want to have a woofer firing horizontally, not vertically, as you get rid of this factor of gravity then. Firing up or down you add in another non-linearity that is easy to avoid. If you have to face it up or down, then do it, but ANY woofer will work more linearly and have a longer lifespan if played in the horizontal direction.

The point is that you cannot have a woofer put in an upward firing direction for years and when it sags, expect that it was a build error that should be covered under warranty. Also look at the context of my statements. It is NOT something that we specifically claim that is out of the norm. The warranty policy we have is from Lambda Acoustics and was originally duplicated from Kicker back in 2001. Contact any other manufacturer and ask them if you have a badly biased suspension after a long period of use if they'll rebuild the driver for free.

What I find most amusing is the next post below mine.

http://caraudioforum.com/showpost.php?p=2116286&postcount=21

John, that actually makes perfect sense. I kind of knew that, but definitely hadn't thought about it, haha.

You understood it then and it made sense, but now you don't understand?

John

 

[kendogg 10+ year member]

I'll save you some time and link to our warranty policy. If you were to compare it to most all warranties out there you'll see that must just state they don't cover abuse. This leaves the door wide open for them to claim anything they want as abuse and not repair the driver. We go into a little more specific detail.
http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/shipping.php

The following issues are considered abuse and do not constitute a warranty claim:

Open voice coil

Burnt or charred voice coil

Bottomed voice coil

Out-gassed voice coil

Voice Coil with a bent former

Burnt tinsel leads

Spider sag

Speakers with silicone caulk used for gasket material

Damaged cone, surround, dustcap, or outer gasket

Damage caused by exposure to excessive heat, chemicals, water, and/or UV radiation

Damage caused by installation slips (screwdriver holes)

Damage caused by negligence, misuse, accident, or abuse

Damage caused during freight or transit

Return shipping on non-defective item

Other items or merchandise to which an Acoustic Elegance LLC product was installed, or used in conjunction with

Other items not manufactured by Acoustic Elegance LLC

Items previously repaired or modified by other than Acoustic Elegance LLC

I should clarify though. What you are referring to is the point about spider sag and my comments in the past. Any woofer will sag gradually over time if fired up or down. There is no way around that. You have an initial amount of sag that you can calculate from a formula based on Mms and Cms. Over time though ANY suspension on ANY woofer is going to get more and more biased due to the acceleration of gravity continually acting on the suspension. The softer the suspension, the more initial sag and the greater the increased sag over time.

You just can't get around the effects of gravity. This is that same reason people happen to get shorter in their old age because gravity is continually acting on their bodies. Their spines will compress or bend due to 80+ years of this force of gravity.

Ideally you would always want to have a woofer firing horizontally, not vertically, as you get rid of this factor of gravity then. Firing up or down you add in another non-linearity that is easy to avoid. If you have to face it up or down, then do it, but ANY woofer will work more linearly and have a longer lifespan if played in the horizontal direction.

The point is that you cannot have a woofer put in an upward firing direction for years and when it sags, expect that it was a build error that should be covered under warranty. Also look at the context of my statements. It is NOT something that we specifically claim that is out of the norm. The warranty policy we have is from Lambda Acoustics and was originally duplicated from Kicker back in 2001. Contact any other manufacturer and ask them if you have a badly biased suspension after a long period of use if they'll rebuild the driver for free.

What I find most amusing is the next post below mine.

http://caraudioforum.com/showpost.php?p=2116286&postcount=21

You understood it then and it made sense, but now you don't understand?

John

Did I say I don't understand?? I still do. If I decide to up or down-fire a driver, it's my problem. It was simply more evidence proving my point - which was how flippy-floppy you are.

 

[John_E_Janowitz 10+ year member]

Did I say I don't understand?? I still do. If I decide to up or down-fire a driver, it's my problem. It was simply more evidence proving my point - which was how flippy-floppy you are.

I'm not sure how i am flippy floppy. I have never recommended to play any driver upwards unless necessary where you cannot physically fire it horizontally. My comments were talking about the measurements in Bose301's vehicle. We fired the driver to various positions simply to illustrate the fact that there are great differences in upper bass response due to the position of the driver in relation to the front stage. I had never recommended that he always keep the driver firing upwards. It was in that position for a total of about 5 minutes or so. Before he left he returned it to a horizontal firing position. The point was simply to evaluate the amount of interaction between the front stage and the subwoofer. Changing the subwoofer position while not changing the level or xover at all will tell you a lot.

Bose301's actually just purchased the Zapco DSP6 unit I believe, but he could verify that. Next time he comes down I'll be helping him set this up properly. He'll also be able to evaluate an AV12X vs the SI MAGv4 he has now and give his own thoughts.

John

 

[ninjawhiteboy12 10+ year member]

hey john, have you started the 3in voice coil subs yet?

 

[nastyaudioman 10+ year member]

Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz 04-08-2007, 05:44 AM just a quick note on up or downfiring a woofer. Any woofer when firing up or down will have an immediate bias to the suspension. The coil starts in an off center position. This is not good for linearity at all and will cause some extra distortion due to not having the same amount of force on the coil in both directions. In addition to this, if you have it firing up, gravity works with the force of the motor on the downward stroke and against it on the upward stroke, further making it non-linear. The same in a downfiring. Over time the suspension will bias more and more and it becomes more and more non-linear. You will end up running into suspension limits quicker in one direction than the other limiting your excursion capability. To make that all worse a biased spider is something that voids the warranty policy with every manufacturer I have ever seen. It comes under the line of improper use as the driver was never intended to operate with the coil off center.

This is asinine.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

kevin went threw the same **** with adire.. good luck fellas

 

[microhaxo 10+ year member]

Just wanted to chime in, the sub still sounds great! no issues.