Featured 2018 Toyota Sienna minivan with 2 DB4515R on 2 Taramps Smart 8 Bass

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

Did 144.89 dB music average, but the org I compete in raised the time for music averages to 45 seconds, which is very brutal. I had to turn it down a couple clicks around 35-40 seconds because I was smelling it. Squeezed out second in a group of 3.

I also did a burp class and hit 146.91 dB at 40 hz. I only have one amp hooked up (the subs can't take the 2nd usually) and I clipped it pretty hard, but the coils were cool to the touch afterwards. In hindsight, I should've hooked them both up and just sent it. I maybe would've been close to 150, double power adds 3 dB in theory but who knows in reality. Power losses through panel warping such might've prevented it. Next time I go to a meet I'll hook up both amps. Took first because no one happened to be in that category on the day.

The dreamscicles seem to be much more efficient, using maybe 1/3rd the power but only down 2-3 dB (ball park estimate haven't ever clamped it), but there's no beating the power handling I had before. For the price I paid ($700 for the pair used) they're incredible.

I also competed in a fun class where the meter is placed on stand 30" away from the car with the door open and I did over 130 outside the car. I took last of 3

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

Did 144.89 dB music average, but the org I compete in raised the time for music averages to 45 seconds, which is very brutal. I had to turn it down a couple clicks around 35-40 seconds because I was smelling it. Squeezed out second in a group of 3.

I also did a burp class and hit 146.91 dB at 40 hz. I only have one amp hooked up (the subs can't take the 2nd usually) and I clipped it pretty hard, but the coils were cool to the touch afterwards. In hindsight, I should've hooked them both up and just sent it. I maybe would've been close to 150, double power adds 3 dB in theory but who knows in reality. Power losses through panel warping such might've prevented it. Next time I go to a meet I'll hook up both amps. Took first because no one happened to be in that category on the day.

The dreamscicles seem to be much more efficient, using maybe 1/3rd the power but only down 2-3 dB (ball park estimate haven't ever clamped it), but there's no beating the power handling I had before. For the price I paid ($700 for the pair used) they're incredible.

I also competed in a fun class where the meter is placed on stand 30" away from the car with the door open and I did over 130 outside the car. I took last of 3

I know you have a heavily involved enclosure, testing in progress and all. Don't hesitate to reach out if you feel some help is needed. I may be able to help after all, system design and enclosures are what I do. No shade thrown... I'm still learning.

Aren't we all, you never know it all.

I love your cabin work but the enclosure? Maybe I can help.

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

I know you have a heavily involved enclosure, testing in progress and all. Don't hesitate to reach out if you feel some help is needed. I may be able to help after all, system design and enclosures are what I do. No shade thrown... I'm still learning.

Aren't we all, you never know it all.

I love your cabin work but the enclosure? Maybe I can help.

Thanks! I think the only thing I need to try with the enclosure is what you suggested earlier, with the tuning. I think the volume is good for 2 15's. The box does what I wanted it to do when I designed it and tuned it to 28 - music super flat and low. Also plays mid/low 20's easily. But you're totally right about knocking down the port length and getting loud. I'd gain a lot of efficiency and only sacrifice ~30 hz down. Outside of rebassed music I wouldn't lose much. I'd also meter much better.

I can give demos at 25 hz and it's solid, makes the doors flap and the seats vibrate and people like it. Especially people who are in the hobby, they notice I'm basically a trunk-only build with 3 rows and they're impressed I fit the set-up into the trunk. And who doesn't love low lows

Maybe next thing I should do is cut those ports down to 2 or 3" above the baffle, enough for a pvc coupler to fit on it, so I don't have to commit to it and can add port back later. Don't remember exactly how much port length is in the box but opening my old winISD files shows 34 in port length, knocking it down to near the baffle brings it to about 35 hz tuning (20 in length). 3 6" pvc ports, the elbows are about 9" length (I did the math when I built it and came to that figure), plus 10 straight pipe up

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

The biggest thing with the project right now is the subs. Getting big high-power handling subs again would bring it back to it's glory when the db4515rs were working lmfao.

I want custom subs but the parts are difficult to find, especially the coils. I actually reached out to Precision Econowind (you've probably heard of them if you've seen "PE coil" on something), they let me know they can make what I want, which is a 4" coil with 4" wind height. Preferably 8 layer. Guy I know who builds speakers said I might even go for copper instead of aluminum, very heavy so not efficent but low fs because of the weight and really good thermal properties. That would take a ton of power. They have a MOQ of 25 pieces, I actually thought about going through with it and buying 25 coils just to use 2 but it's a lot money....

Lord of Bass has 600 oz ferrite motors available rn, the speaker builder told me they actually have more ferrite than the deaf bonces did. So they'd be better, more magnet similar overall weight. The frames, cones, spiders, etc. are easy to get compared to motors/coils. If you don't need/want the best thing ever, you can find them, but I want to build subs that can take a smart 8k each and sound good while doing it

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

The biggest thing with the project right now is the subs. Getting big high-power handling subs again would bring it back to it's glory when the db4515rs were working lmfao.

I want custom subs but the parts are difficult to find, especially the coils. I actually reached out to Precision Econowind (you've probably heard of them if you've seen "PE coil" on something), they let me know they can make what I want, which is a 4" coil with 4" wind height. Preferably 8 layer. Guy I know who builds speakers said I might even go for copper instead of aluminum, very heavy so not efficent but low fs because of the weight and really good thermal properties. That would take a ton of power. They have a MOQ of 25 pieces, I actually thought about going through with it and buying 25 coils just to use 2 but it's a lot money....

Lord of Bass has 600 oz ferrite motors available rn, the speaker builder told me they actually have more ferrite than the deaf bonces did. So they'd be better, more magnet similar overall weight. The frames, cones, spiders, etc. are easy to get compared to motors/coils. If you don't need/want the best thing ever, you can find them, but I want to build subs that can take a smart 8k each and sound good while doing it

Don't get caught up in minutiae would be my advice. I'd take a look at the port area^ft3 myself. You claim its 7.5ft3 ok... it sure doesn't look like it to me... that said with 3 ea 6" rounds that'll be what? 78in2 of port which in 7.5ft3 comes out to 10.4in2^ft3 and that's low port area in my experience. Especially with the power you have.

Edit*** I'm just saying somethings off about the whole thing. Your either presently tuned too low with those Dreamsicle 15s or lack of port and tuned too low once the DB are back in. Having to hard clip those 4515's and slag the coils to even get close to 150db kind of smells like compression to me. I would think with a single 8K on 2 15's it should do the job or at least get you close.

I tried to model those Dreamsicle subs up and did not like how they looked due to some parameter values being off. I reentered everything and substituted some known values for what seemed off and... voila'

3 6" will be enough port for the current subs you have if the subsonic is set right. That low tuning is certainly killing output. I'd wager with the 4515s in there and both amps hooked up no matter what the output will compress and you'll reach thermal limits pretty quickly.

In my experience a set of hi power 15's with the power your putting to those DB subs usually want 120in2-130in2 of port in 6.5ft3-7.5ft3 for a slot. 2 8k's... oh boy... thats some juice for sure.

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

Don't get caught up in minutiae would be my advice. I'd take a look at the port area^ft3 myself. You claim its 7.5ft3 ok... it sure doesn't look like it to me... that said with 3 ea 6" rounds that'll be what? 78in2 of port which in 7.5ft3 comes out to 10.4in2^ft3 and that's low port area in my experience. Especially with the power you have.

Edit*** I'm just saying somethings off about the whole thing. Your either presently tuned too low with those Dreamsicle 15s or lack of port and tuned too low once the DB are back in. Having to hard clip those 4515's and slag the coils to even get close to 150db kind of smells like compression to me. I would think with a single 8K on 2 15's it should do the job or at least get you close.

I tried to model those Dreamsicle subs up and did not like how they looked due to some parameter values being off. I reentered everything and substituted some known values for what seemed off and... voila'

3 6" will be enough port for the current subs you have if the subsonic is set right. That low tuning is certainly killing output. I'd wager with the 4515s in there and both amps hooked up no matter what the output will compress and you'll reach thermal limits pretty quickly.

In my experience a set of hi power 15's with the power your putting to those DB subs usually want 120in2-130in2 of port in 6.5ft3-7.5ft3 for a slot. 2 8k's... oh boy... thats some juice for sure.

The box extends below the bumper pretty far, the floor in the trunk of the car drops all the way down basically, that might be why it looks smaller than it is. Here's the outside dimensions:

That's 15.1 ft3 gross before you subtract the 45 degree section on the bottom and the displacement of the port tubes.

I really wish there were a way fit more port but I just don't think there is. I'd have to move to a pair of 12's. That would give a lot more room and also require less box volume. I've been thinking about getting a DATS v3 and measuring the box. I know what you're saying with something being off, after seeing other people compete and what #'s they get, I think something doesn't add up. If there's something unexpected in the impedance sweep we'd know for sure if the box is messed up.

I keep checking my models and physical measurements from when I designed the thing and can't find mistakes. So measuring might be the only way.

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

The box extends below the bumper pretty far, the floor in the trunk of the car drops all the way down basically, that might be why it looks smaller than it is.

I keep checking my models and physical measurements from when I designed the thing and can't find mistakes. So measuring might be the only way.

Maybe the ports extending from the baffle to the extent that they are may be causing cancellation issues? I've never bought into the whole inverted sub look tbh myself and wonder how much port you could fit if the enclosure was about windowline or seat height. Maybe a side fire port as its a third row install? My personal spl rig had a side fire 10" aero that was like 14in2^ft3 with sub up and firing sideways into the pocket behind the wheelwell. Amazingly it was about 10" clearance back there so adding or opening up the clearance in front of the port /w/ laminating wood in the pocket let me gain a db or so or find more extension depending on the clearance. I had enough power to coil tap the sub so I was looking for the limits. When the coil finally popped (hats off to FI) it was like 1.5yr into coil tap territory and you should have been there to see the former come out and what I had to do to get it out. Props to Fi for handling my abuse.

You are right there man, testing is the way.

All that said, I'd default to blaming it being a Toyota Sienna but I can't, with all that cabin work you did I'm forced to default to raising tuning and possibly finding a way for more port area.

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

double post... oops

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

Maybe the ports extending from the baffle to the extent that they are may be causing cancellation issues? I've never bought into the whole inverted sub look tbh myself and wonder how much port you could fit if the enclosure was about windowline or seat height. Maybe a side fire port as its a third row install? My personal spl rig had a side fire 10" aero that was like 14in2^ft3 with sub up and firing sideways into the pocket behind the wheelwell. Amazingly it was about 10" clearance back there so adding or opening up the clearance in front of the port /w/ laminating wood in the pocket let me gain a db or so or find more extension depending on the clearance. I had enough power to coil tap the sub so I was looking for the limits. When the coil finally popped (hats off to FI) it was like 1.5yr into coil tap territory and you should have been there to see the former come out and what I had to do to get it out. Props to Fi for handling my abuse.

You are right there man, testing is the way.

All that said, I'd default to blaming it being a Toyota Sienna but I can't, with all that cabin work you did I'm forced to default to raising tuning and possibly finding a way for more port area.

I've never played with it myself, but in ported boxes with at least one other customer I had I've noticed they had problems running inverted, lower output/worse bandwidth some. There's no way the back of the cone radiates better than the front, with the front being a consistently shaped surface, so like the back of the cone might not work as well as radiating surface into the cabin like the front would, where maybe the back of the cone would pressurize the box perfectly fine. That is something I've thought about but can't really test myself- the front of the cone has to be a better radiating area, maybe what you'd want to fire into the cabin, where the back of the cone is perfectly fine to pressurize the already high pressure box, where the cabin is harder to pressure so maybe front cone would work better to pair with cabin for coupling/radiating surface reasons. Just a rough thought, not sure if it'd work out that way.

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

Maybe the ports extending from the baffle to the extent that they are may be causing cancellation issues? I've never bought into the whole inverted sub look tbh myself and wonder how much port you could fit if the enclosure was about windowline or seat height. Maybe a side fire port as its a third row install? My personal spl rig had a side fire 10" aero that was like 14in2^ft3 with sub up and firing sideways into the pocket behind the wheelwell. Amazingly it was about 10" clearance back there so adding or opening up the clearance in front of the port /w/ laminating wood in the pocket let me gain a db or so or find more extension depending on the clearance. I had enough power to coil tap the sub so I was looking for the limits. When the coil finally popped (hats off to FI) it was like 1.5yr into coil tap territory and you should have been there to see the former come out and what I had to do to get it out. Props to Fi for handling my abuse.

You are right there man, testing is the way.

All that said, I'd default to blaming it being a Toyota Sienna but I can't, with all that cabin work you did I'm forced to default to raising tuning and possibly finding a way for more port area.

I mainly decided to go inverted for coil cooling. I was hoping they'd cool better this way, but maybe it doesn't work that way at all. This is my first build with this much juice per speaker. Someone at a meet suggested I could try pointing fans at the subs, not sure how much that would do but its an idea.

It would be odd if there was cancelation given how long bass waves are but that's a thought. I think that would show up in the impedance sweep if I got a DATS.

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

I've never played with it myself, but in ported boxes with at least one other customer I had I've noticed they had problems running inverted, lower output/worse bandwidth some. There's no way the back of the cone radiates better than the front, with the front being a consistently shaped surface, so like the back of the cone might not work as well as radiating surface into the cabin like the front would, where maybe the back of the cone would pressurize the box perfectly fine. That is something I've thought about but can't really test myself- the front of the cone has to be a better radiating area, maybe what you'd want to fire into the cabin, where the back of the cone is perfectly fine to pressurize the already high pressure box, where the cabin is harder to pressure so maybe front cone would work better to pair with cabin for coupling/radiating surface reasons. Just a rough thought, not sure if it'd work out that way.

The front of the cone has a bit more area in the center of the cone but I was under the impression it was negligible, although maybe I heard that from people who run inverted just to show off the magnets

The dreamscicles probably fit normal mount in that box, the DB probably not. But I could try flipping them over and seeing if it sounds different.

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

The dreamscicles probably fit normal mount in that box, the DB probably not. But I could try flipping them over and seeing if it sounds different.

Flipping the subs over will definitely change the sound a bit imo. It'll probably displace more or less .25ft3 ea or .5 overall and that will raise tuning slightly.

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

The front of the cone has a bit more area in the center of the cone but I was under the impression it was negligible, although maybe I heard that from people who run inverted just to show off the magnets

The dreamscicles probably fit normal mount in that box, the DB probably not. But I could try flipping them over and seeing if it sounds different.

It's hard to say, maybe sometimes it would be and others it wouldn't matter

 

[shredder1 10+ year member]

The dreamscicles probably fit normal mount in that box, the DB probably not. But I could try flipping them over and seeing if it sounds different.

I'm thinking that tuning is your block to 150db, no matter how you cut it cabin peak should be a critical consideration when working with limited cone area. 2-15's tuned under 30hz in a huge cabin might get windy depending on the sub and power supplied but a 3rd row location is ripe for a 31-32hz tuning I'd think. The cabin better be solid as yours is too. I only tune 28hz unless in a 6th, or playing kang cone... or if something stoopid is in the mix like a Pride S5-18.
Kang cone, 6th order problems or superwoofer there's ways to make the environment misbehave in a way to affect goals. Most default to big power while playing Kang Kone...

 

[CertifiedHoodClassic]

I'm thinking that tuning is your block to 150db, no matter how you cut it cabin peak should be a critical consideration when working with limited cone area. 2-15's tuned under 30hz in a huge cabin might get windy depending on the sub and power supplied but a 3rd row location is ripe for a 31-32hz tuning I'd think. The cabin better be solid as yours is too. I only tune 28hz unless in a 6th, or playing kang cone... or if something stoopid is in the mix like a Pride S5-18.
Kang cone, 6th order problems or superwoofer there's ways to make the environment misbehave in a way to affect goals. Most default to big power while playing Kang Kone...

If those Prides were easier to get in the US and weren't 3k$ they would be great in this setup. Or even the especially badass looking UFO line (but it's 5k$ and out of stock rn in the 15" ). I honestly think 5" coil subs should be more common given how cheap/compact power is these days.

At that price, I could buy the MOQ at Precision Econowind (25 units) just to use 2. I didn't give them all the specs when I made my inquiry a couple months ago but they told me the price would be at least 60$. I didn't tell them the wind height though, which I suspect would double the price. I want at least a 4" wind height. Someone I met at a car meet has some used Fi Audio Neo 4.11's for sale, which could be a great motor to build on. I need to talk to the speaker builder to see if it's feasible. He's pretty great, I've spent maybe 200$ with him for amp repairs, but he likes to talk about audio and I've spoken with him a good bit about sub design and such.

I'll wait until after I have a DATS and have tried to figure out where my losses are now though.