Should We Defund The Police

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

I

I said documented "HISTORY". LOL, and you send me one article that you just "google." I now see why the other folks are responding to you the way they are. I'm not wasting any more of my time with you. Don't you love the ignore feature on this forum!!!!!!!!! Bye!!!!!!!!

Ignore button is sooo gay

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

Listen.
Do ANY of you want to live with criminals?
Do ANY of you think criminals should get away with breaking the law?

Well ummmm

 

[Lasherž]

I will humor you.

I was told that one more **** up and I would be going away for a long LOOOONG time. I made the choice that being a criminal wasn't for me. Question answered.

Punishing cops that do bad things isn't the issue and not what would cause anarchy. It's punishing the cops that do their jobs the right way that will cause them to walk away from law enforcement reducing the amount of police out there. That is what will cause anarchy and lawlessness. Good luck in your Mad Max world.

When it is suggested that ALL cops need to change because of the actions of a few bad cops, that is nonsensical.

When a cop breaks the law, you punish THAT cop. You don't change the entire law enforcement community for the screw up of a few bad cops.

Nobody said cops should be able to break the law however they should not be restricted on how they lawfully interact with criminals.

If a person has not broken any laws and a police officer stops you then do what they say, be respectful, don't escalate the situation. Cop goes away, you go away. No harm, no foul.

We coddle criminals way too much.

Well I'm glad you were given the chance to do better. Do you really think everyone is given that chance without ending up in the penitentiary? You blame criminals for being criminals, sure, but again I'll ask what's more important? That they're no longer committing criminal activity or that they're punished by the state? Plenty of studies, not just the one covered in the link show that harsh punishment doesn't lead to improved crime rates. You say we coddle them but we have the highest percentage of our population in jail of any other nation.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe it's because other countries base their actions on science and what works instead of state vengeance. Also worth exploring is that we have poor recidivism rates, likely due to private prisons having a profit motive to not reintroduce their prisoners into society, also completely contrary to other countries.

"Punishing cops that do bad things isn't the issue and not what would cause anarchy." So then you support ending portions of qualified immunity and independent prosecutors, good to hear and the argument is pretty much agreance now apart from the first part.

I don't think anyone is recommending punishing cops that do their jobs the right way, but a lot of people who don't have any complaints are well aware of their fellow officers being shitbags, that doesn't make them guiltless no matter how you spin it. They also constantly stick together against the community like the buffalo cops, these are not guiltless "cops that do their jobs the right way." Many cops are good and they have no reason to leave, because they're following procedures and don't help their bad cops get away with bullshit. They don't stay silent (and often get called rats for it by other officers).

In terms of changing the law enforcement community I don't think that reasonable officers would disagree with extra accountability because frankly it's a bad career move for them currently to report bad behavior to direct supervisors. There should be oversight and getting the bad cops called out on the community side make it much easier to punish them on the criminal side and more acceptable to call them out within the department. It's also a reduction in their duties, which I don't think should be a big deal since honestly they do too much. A lot of which wasn't part of their education like handling tense situations involving medical emergencies. I'd say distancing themselves from things they're not good at is a net gain for everybody and if they are good at it then maybe they should leave the force to pursue that instead?

If you haven't broken the law or flagged down the officer, it's an unlawful stop but I agree that you should be respectful and shouldn't escalate the situation. That being said, officers should also deescalate the situation. Basically every unarmed cop shooting involves officers taking steps above the escalation level of the person they're arresting. Both of them are scared of each other in other words and they take turns escalating. Cops should never be the instigators of any escalation step and that's in fact what a lot of their training covers, yet we see many examples of that training failing for cops who had been previously flagged for infractions within the department.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

@Lasherž, actually, minorities should feel pretty safe in Buffalo. A 50% minority population of 250,000 plus and zero deaths between 2013-2016. Just sayin!

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

@Lasherž, actually, minorities should feel pretty safe in Buffalo. A 50% minority population of 250,000 plus and zero deaths between 2013-2016. Just sayin!View attachment 22148

Wonder what the real stats are.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

Well I'm glad you were given the chance to do better. Do you really think everyone is given that chance without ending up in the penitentiary? You blame criminals for being criminals, sure, but again I'll ask what's more important? That they're no longer committing criminal activity or that they're punished by the state? Plenty of studies, not just the one covered in the link show that harsh punishment doesn't lead to improved crime rates. You say we coddle them but we have the highest percentage of our population in jail of any other nation.

List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe it's because other countries base their actions on science and what works instead of state vengeance. Also worth exploring is that we have poor recidivism rates, likely due to private prisons having a profit motive to not reintroduce their prisoners into society, also completely contrary to other countries.

"Punishing cops that do bad things isn't the issue and not what would cause anarchy." So then you support ending portions of qualified immunity and independent prosecutors, good to hear and the argument is pretty much agreance now apart from the first part.

I don't think anyone is recommending punishing cops that do their jobs the right way, but a lot of people who don't have any complaints are well aware of their fellow officers being shitbags, that doesn't make them guiltless no matter how you spin it. They also constantly stick together against the community like the buffalo cops, these are not guiltless "cops that do their jobs the right way." Many cops are good and they have no reason to leave, because they're following procedures and don't help their bad cops get away with bullshit. They don't stay silent (and often get called rats for it by other officers).

In terms of changing the law enforcement community I don't think that reasonable officers would disagree with extra accountability because frankly it's a bad career move for them currently to report bad behavior to direct supervisors. There should be oversight and getting the bad cops called out on the community side make it much easier to punish them on the criminal side and more acceptable to call them out within the department. It's also a reduction in their duties, which I don't think should be a big deal since honestly they do too much. A lot of which wasn't part of their education like handling tense situations involving medical emergencies. I'd say distancing themselves from things they're not good at is a net gain for everybody and if they are good at it then maybe they should leave the force to pursue that instead?

If you haven't broken the law or flagged down the officer, it's an unlawful stop but I agree that you should be respectful and shouldn't escalate the situation. That being said, officers should also deescalate the situation. Basically every unarmed cop shooting involves officers taking steps above the escalation level of the person they're arresting. Both of them are scared of each other in other words and they take turns escalating. Cops should never be the instigators of any escalation step and that's in fact what a lot of their training covers, yet we see many examples of that training failing for cops who had been previously flagged for infractions within the department.

Are you answering for me?

What I am saying is this:

If someone breaks the law, anyone, then they are to be punished accordingly.
If there is a problem with law enforcement brotherhood, snitches and code among LEO's then instead of defunding them, add greater funding for Internal Affairs. Or better yet, use other sources to police the police like the FBI.
INCREASE funding for better training.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

Wonder what the real stats are.

That's what sucks. It's a documented study, yet, nobody will believe it. People don't know what to believe these days. Can't trust anbody

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

If they aren't committing crimes there is no need for them to be punished by the state.

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

It must **** being a cop. You know that everybody you pull over , either hates you already, or, is pissed that you pulled them over. It seems to be a pretty thankless job, but everybody loves when a fireman shows up.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

Because, cops will be afraid to make a mistake and end up in jail and being sued personally. I also think that many more cops will be hurt or killed. They will have to react slower to be totally sure what the person is actually reaching for. There are a lot of people asking for the defunding of police and removing qualified immunity.

As they should have to react slower. Killing people because they cant handle the pressure of their job or de-escalate as they were trained is their fault. Nobody is arguing that that someone with a gun shouldnt be shot, but when a cop busts into an apartment they think is theirs and shoot someone that is rightfully supposed to be there, that is far too soon. People with their backs to the cops and hands up clearly dont have guns and are being shot. Even the link you shared below is cops killing people who arent a threat. That is the issue.

Do criminals follow rules? Are criminals worried about how they make cops feel? Do criminals care about killing cops?

No, of course they dont. Just because criminals dont follow the rules, the people we entrust to protect us shouldn't either? I dont see the correlation. If thats the case, are you for or against nobody following the rules?

So, your argument is that cops should wait until the criminal, who is disobeying orders, actually pulls his/her gun out and reveals it, to then make his mind up? That would be too late and result in a lot of dead cops, of all races. I see a lot more full felony stops in the future. So, you want the cops to follow the strictest guidelines when dealing with criminals? Sounds like the inmates will be running the asylum.

Absolutely. As a concealed carry holder, I cant just pull out my gun and shoot someone because I think Im scared. Im held to a higher standard than our police force across the country. In order for me to use my firearm, I have to be in imminent danger and have no other way to defend myself. The same should go for cops.

You are so damn blind it is painful.

Criminals don't play by god damn rules. When you limit police on what they can do to uphold the law, criminals will now be even more bold. You literally want to protect criminals and make it easier for them to commit crimes.

In your world you have cops approaching criminals in the act of committing crimes and counting to 5 or the criminals will have to go stand in the corner. It doesn't work for kids, it isn't going to work on criminals. It teaches criminals that if they do enough phucked up shit they will scare all you ******* into letting them get away with shit.

Maybe that's what you want... a world with no law so you can do whatever the hell you want.

As far as my sentence, mother fucker I was smart enough to learn that it isn't worth it to lose my freedom so I made the choice to no longer break the law. That is a major difference between me and you. I can learn and you are a puppet. Dance mother fucker dance.

How many of the people that have been killed in recent months due to police brutality been involved in situations where the cop had no other choice? Almost none of them. They were either hands up, in handcuffs, or just talking and were killed. There are less leathal ways to deal with criminals that wont comply. The only reason a cop should ever pull a gun and kill someone is if their life is in danger and they have no other option. In all of the cases that have lead up to these mass protests, that hasnt been the case.

Read this story. Black cop shoots an unarmed black guy who is handcuffed in the back seat of his squad car.
View attachment 22144

And your point? What does this have to do with systemic racism?

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I will humor you.

I was told that one more **** up and I would be going away for a long LOOOONG time. I made the choice that being a criminal wasn't for me. Question answered.

Punishing cops that do bad things isn't the issue and not what would cause anarchy. It's punishing the cops that do their jobs the right way that will cause them to walk away from law enforcement reducing the amount of police out there. That is what will cause anarchy and lawlessness. Good luck in your Mad Max world.

When it is suggested that ALL cops need to change because of the actions of a few bad cops, that is nonsensical.

When a cop breaks the law, you punish THAT cop. You don't change the entire law enforcement community for the screw up of a few bad cops.

Nobody said cops should be able to break the law however they should not be restricted on how they lawfully interact with criminals.

If a person has not broken any laws and a police officer stops you then do what they say, be respectful, don't escalate the situation. Cop goes away, you go away. No harm, no foul.

We coddle criminals way too much.

All cops are bad cops. When the "good" cops dont stand for what is right and they took an oath to uphold the law, they are bad cops. Sure you can weed out the worst of the bad cops, but when you have a 20 year veteran with 70 reports against him training new cops, its a systemic issue.

It must **** being a cop. You know that everybody you pull over , either hates you already, or, is pissed that you pulled them over. It seems to be a pretty thankless job, but everybody loves when a fireman shows up.

Fireman arent going around killing people in handcuffs for no reason. They are saving shit like they are supposed to.

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

It must **** being a cop. You know that everybody you pull over , either hates you already, or, is pissed that you pulled them over. It seems to be a pretty thankless job, but everybody loves when a fireman shows up.

I've said it before, My grandpa was a cop. He hated it. He was literally the best man I've ever known. Not all cops are bad. It's the system. None of this matters though really.

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

Are you answering for me?

Lulz

 

[Slo_Ride 5,000+ posts]

All cops are bad cops. When the "good" cops dont stand for what is right and they took an oath to uphold the law, they are bad cops. Sure you can weed out the worst of the bad cops, but when you have a 20 year veteran with 70 reports against him training new cops, its a systemic issue.



Fireman arent going around killing people in handcuffs for no reason. They are saving shit like they are supposed to.

You come after my firemen and first responders bro and we will fight

 

[Bobbytwonames 5,000+ posts]

@whitedragon551
Absolutely. As a concealed carry holder, I cant just pull out my gun and shoot someone because I think Im scared. Im held to a higher standard than our police force across the country. In order for me to use my firearm, I have to be in imminent danger and have no other way to defend myself. The same should go for cops.

This will lead to many cops being killed. If they are trying to de-escalate the situation with their gun holstered when a criminals pulls out a gun, then, it will be too late and said cop would be dead. At least he would die a good cop, I guess.