Jump to content


hispls

Lithium Titanate (LTO) battery bank build.

Recommended Posts

This is a thread for progress and results of the LTO battery banks I'm going to be building for my Jeep and my brother's Civic. 

So far so good.  It was pretty scary sending a bunch of money to China but the cells arrived and the fella at the company was very helpful and on the ball with updates of order status.  Everything arrived well packed and seemingly in good condition.  I'm ordering some copper bar today and will hopefully get to building bus bars early next week or whenever my brother can get up here to help out for a day or two.

IMG_2001.JPG

IMG_2002.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tuned in for more.


Refs = PapaGeno21, Goindef154, 92c1v1c, Disarmer, chemmins, 97maxima, kroid777, ithertz, basscort2009, hunterw, mar08052, appleyard, millimac247, jonny101abc, sundownz, cranberryyumyum, mig139, daboyfrumdabx, skateguy92, basebalz13.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much did you pay per cell and how many did you have to buy.


bought from MBROOKY, johnny law.Lulz, subzero, tc3k101

sold to mytrunkslamz , vitveet, cd6551, martiandancer31 (x2), pro-rabbit, whytellyou

Trade with cf2004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing 40.


Refs = PapaGeno21, Goindef154, 92c1v1c, Disarmer, chemmins, 97maxima, kroid777, ithertz, basscort2009, hunterw, mar08052, appleyard, millimac247, jonny101abc, sundownz, cranberryyumyum, mig139, daboyfrumdabx, skateguy92, basebalz13.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, dbjunior said:

How much did you pay per cell and how many did you have to buy.

Price is low 20$ range plus shipping.  I paid for sea shipping which saved a fair bit of money but it's still pretty expensive.  If you don't mind paying more you can get them delivered in about a week (mine were about 7-8 weeks from payment to delivery).  I bought 84 pieces, different sellers probably have different minimum order quantity.

17 hours ago, Slo_Ride said:

I'm guessing 40.

That's roughly the price with express shipping or the price to buy them from sellers who ship from USA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awwwwwwesome. Very glad to hear that everything was legit. Even used protective corners on the boxes. The cells are a little bigger than I expected, but 40Ah!

Edited by ciaonzo

Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I’m new to the lithium world, how is this cheaper/better then buying a northstar or limitless? All ears 


My wife doesn’t know about my car audio addiction...shhhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congrats on the diy lithium build. I was looking at doing this myself. Upon my many hours and countless days of research I  found that you need the lithium iron phosphate cells as the lithium have to many variables if something was to go wrong. Also checked into many brands such as limitless and jy lithiums, neither of them run BMS (battery management systems) which is why vehicles are catching on fire as the cells become unstable at certain temps or charge irregular and cause short and then fire. Also loomed at xs power lithium and many others. The DS18 lithium seem the most transparent as they have wingnut tops on their case and u can check quality your self. I Called GP audio and was just asking and asked why they haven't  any lithiums yet, this striked an hr long convo of the research they have put into and money as well and why they won't  have any lithiums. Basically was told that lithiums are still to unstable even though the cells have that lil valve that will pop if something goes wrong and the BMS systems. If a cell pops being that close to the others it will cause an explosion. Also the bms systems detect alot of things like equal charging and safety shut offs. But the bms for car audio would cost to much to be practical and affordable. I was told that there is a new tech. That will be put in a couple yrs that will be as good as lithium and as safe as agm baterries. I decided I  am going to wait on lithium and just get another xsd3400 or maybe a North star if they ever go on sale. Lol. I see you stated lithium titanate, what is that? Is it safe? Also do you still need to have the special charging and checking system to utilize the use of these cells correctly? Will you be running bms on these? If anything I  have stated is incorrect by all means please enlighten me, I  want to go lithium so badly just  like a 80ah lithium but they same to risky and dangerous still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive been running my own DIY LTO lithium batteries most of this year. They are awesome.Different cells though.


Refs;Bought from: Boomsday, special_k_1999, BAD_MAYEM, C1500Martin, roko, Michaellane

Sold to: sam_b03, Nate121, Smaxor5, Boomsday, unrealii, paulluap,technobass,gmc123

TN State Champion MECA MOD 4 - 2017 + 2018 (158.38db at the headrest on 6500w) 

2nd place World Finals MOD 4 - 2017

#Boominburban - Team OSC - Team FU Audio

Two JS Ult 300 amp alts - Battery delete under hood - 105ah of LTO Lithiums -

80 prs HU - PPI DSP -88R DSP - PPI E.7 EQ for fine tuning

Four PPI p600.2 on front stage - 4 CDT HD-M6's / 2 DS18 6.5 neopros / 2 Dayton Audio RS28 silk dome tweeters

Three Taramps 15k's on 6 FU Audio 1250 - 15's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, L1ttlet said:

Congrats on the diy lithium build. I was looking at doing this myself. Upon my many hours and countless days of research I  found that you need the lithium iron phosphate cells as the lithium have to many variables if something was to go wrong. Also checked into many brands such as limitless and jy lithiums, neither of them run BMS (battery management systems) which is why vehicles are catching on fire as the cells become unstable at certain temps or charge irregular and cause short and then fire. Also loomed at xs power lithium and many others. The DS18 lithium seem the most transparent as they have wingnut tops on their case and u can check quality your self. I Called GP audio and was just asking and asked why they haven't  any lithiums yet, this striked an hr long convo of the research they have put into and money as well and why they won't  have any lithiums. Basically was told that lithiums are still to unstable even though the cells have that lil valve that will pop if something goes wrong and the BMS systems. If a cell pops being that close to the others it will cause an explosion. Also the bms systems detect alot of things like equal charging and safety shut offs. But the bms for car audio would cost to much to be practical and affordable. I was told that there is a new tech. That will be put in a couple yrs that will be as good as lithium and as safe as agm baterries. I decided I  am going to wait on lithium and just get another xsd3400 or maybe a North star if they ever go on sale. Lol. I see you stated lithium titanate, what is that? Is it safe? Also do you still need to have the special charging and checking system to utilize the use of these cells correctly? Will you be running bms on these? If anything I  have stated is incorrect by all means please enlighten me, I  want to go lithium so badly just  like a 80ah lithium but they same to risky and dangerous still.

thats a lot to read 

Edited by MattinMO

My wife doesn’t know about my car audio addiction...shhhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Boominburban said:

Ive been running my own DIY LTO lithium batteries most of this year. They are awesome.Different cells though.

I'm  curious on the LTO builds as all i thought  there was is the lithium iron phosphate. Are these other cells safer? Charge just as fast and everything as the lithiums? I'm  gonna research these as I'd  rather build one of these then get another agm and a h/o alternator. How much did it cost ya if u don't  mind me asking? I know these builds aren't  cheap but much cheaper than buying a premade like jy or limitless one. You haven't  had any issues with this build?  So many questions on building these still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/30/2018 at 6:49 PM, MattinMO said:

So I’m new to the lithium world, how is this cheaper/better then buying a northstar or limitless? All ears 

russians using these did a 181 db. The other choices you listed dont come close.


09 Sienna Subs : Four Team Ascendant 18s......Sub amp: Two Taramps 15k

Headunit: Pioneer 80PRS......Mids/Highs two pioneer gm 8604 bridged, one at 4 ohms bridged one at 2 ohms bridged, one ppi 600.2 for tweets.

Front stage: Two PWX 10s per door midbass only....... PRV 6MR500 midrange....... Massive CT 2 german tweeters.

320 amp Singer alt....... 1 group 34 under the hood 6 group31 agms in the back 560 amp hours total.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to your progress pics and tests @hispls . Curious about these Yinglong cells ...


Refs;Bought from: Boomsday, special_k_1999, BAD_MAYEM, C1500Martin, roko, Michaellane

Sold to: sam_b03, Nate121, Smaxor5, Boomsday, unrealii, paulluap,technobass,gmc123

TN State Champion MECA MOD 4 - 2017 + 2018 (158.38db at the headrest on 6500w) 

2nd place World Finals MOD 4 - 2017

#Boominburban - Team OSC - Team FU Audio

Two JS Ult 300 amp alts - Battery delete under hood - 105ah of LTO Lithiums -

80 prs HU - PPI DSP -88R DSP - PPI E.7 EQ for fine tuning

Four PPI p600.2 on front stage - 4 CDT HD-M6's / 2 DS18 6.5 neopros / 2 Dayton Audio RS28 silk dome tweeters

Three Taramps 15k's on 6 FU Audio 1250 - 15's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, L1ttlet said:

I'm  curious on the LTO builds as all i thought  there was is the lithium iron phosphate. Are these other cells safer? Charge just as fast and everything as the lithiums? I'm  gonna research these as I'd  rather build one of these then get another agm and a h/o alternator. How much did it cost ya if u don't  mind me asking? I know these builds aren't  cheap but much cheaper than buying a premade like jy or limitless one. You haven't  had any issues with this build?  So many questions on building these still.

Yes, these cells are safer. I am not using the same style LTO lithium cell as hispls, I will let him answer your other questions.


Refs;Bought from: Boomsday, special_k_1999, BAD_MAYEM, C1500Martin, roko, Michaellane

Sold to: sam_b03, Nate121, Smaxor5, Boomsday, unrealii, paulluap,technobass,gmc123

TN State Champion MECA MOD 4 - 2017 + 2018 (158.38db at the headrest on 6500w) 

2nd place World Finals MOD 4 - 2017

#Boominburban - Team OSC - Team FU Audio

Two JS Ult 300 amp alts - Battery delete under hood - 105ah of LTO Lithiums -

80 prs HU - PPI DSP -88R DSP - PPI E.7 EQ for fine tuning

Four PPI p600.2 on front stage - 4 CDT HD-M6's / 2 DS18 6.5 neopros / 2 Dayton Audio RS28 silk dome tweeters

Three Taramps 15k's on 6 FU Audio 1250 - 15's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Boominburban said:

Yes, these cells are safer. I am not using the same style LTO lithium cell as hispls, I will let him answer your other questions.

If you wouldn't mind helping me to build my own that'd be great. More input is always better

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, L1ttlet said:

If you wouldn't mind helping me to build my own that'd be great. More input is always better

Are you on any of the diy lto groups on facebook? If so, what's your name? If not, you need to be.


Refs;Bought from: Boomsday, special_k_1999, BAD_MAYEM, C1500Martin, roko, Michaellane

Sold to: sam_b03, Nate121, Smaxor5, Boomsday, unrealii, paulluap,technobass,gmc123

TN State Champion MECA MOD 4 - 2017 + 2018 (158.38db at the headrest on 6500w) 

2nd place World Finals MOD 4 - 2017

#Boominburban - Team OSC - Team FU Audio

Two JS Ult 300 amp alts - Battery delete under hood - 105ah of LTO Lithiums -

80 prs HU - PPI DSP -88R DSP - PPI E.7 EQ for fine tuning

Four PPI p600.2 on front stage - 4 CDT HD-M6's / 2 DS18 6.5 neopros / 2 Dayton Audio RS28 silk dome tweeters

Three Taramps 15k's on 6 FU Audio 1250 - 15's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Boominburban said:

Are you on any of the diy lto groups on facebook? If so, what's your name? If not, you need to be.

I don't use facebook. I swear if I  did I'd  be sponsored by now as it has become a very powerful tool for many things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/30/2018 at 9:49 PM, MattinMO said:

So I’m new to the lithium world, how is this cheaper/better then buying a northstar or limitless? All ears 

Totally different animal than AGM or LiFe PO4.   To try to condense many many hours of research into a short version:

AGM: 

cons: Very slow charge and discharge rate, terrible size and weight. 

Pros:  Tried and true, somewhat inexpensive, easy to find off-the-shelf with warranty, very tolerant to temperature extremes.

2-5 year life expectency

LiFePO4:

Cons:  Sort of expensive for the total energy stored, unknown life expectency 2000-3000 cycles (3 years?), cannot tolerate 100% discharge

Pros:  Very high charge and discharge rating, small and lightweight, easy to find pre assembled (JY, XS, etc.), easy to work with voltage rating cells.

LTO (AFAIK a variation of LiFePO4 with some titanium nano-crystals in the cathode): 

Cons:  Size and weight not nearly as good as LiFePO4, 2.3V nominal cells make useful car audio banks awkward, high charge rate but not nearly as good discharge rate as LiFePO4 (you need 120AH LTO to deliver the same burst current as 40AH LiFePO4), NOBODY is selling consumer ready banks,

Pros:   Big amp hour ratings, very fast charging (if you have enough current), big improvement over AGM as far as size/weight, 10X the cycle life of LiFePO4 20,000-30,000 cycles (15-20 years!), much better perormance at low temperature, can tolerate 100% discharge.

Both LTO and LiFePO4 are safe.  The flavors of lithium batteries that for example make your note 7 blow your balls off in your pocket are still very popular for consumer electronics because they're the highest energy storage for the smallest size/weight, those are the ones that are unstable.   Most of the LiFePO4 cells manufactured are NOT the high current rated ones we use but lower current ones fit mostly for backup power storage where you have a 1000AH bank that would deliver 100A continuous to power your house if the lights go out or overnight when solar isn't collecting or similar.  LTO is being used in a lot of EVs.   Toshiba makes an excellent cell for a couple hybrid cars and some electric busses but you cannot get them unless you're the guy manufacturing EVs and send a tech to Toshiba for their training.

 

On 9/30/2018 at 10:35 PM, L1ttlet said:

 Will you be running bms on these?

Total hokum for our purposes.  Consider I'm using 240AH banks capable of 2400A charge and discharge.  Mind you, I'm only charging at 350A max but now picture a smart circuit that can pass 350A/2400A that can quickly  open the circuit if it sniffs trouble.  To do this properly would cost thousands of dollars and be a box the size of the breaker box in your house.    BMS for solar banks is for small cells with limited charge ratings.   Get a huge stack of 10AH batteries running .5C charge and discharge and you can simply use transistors to pass current and quickly shut off if trouble is detected (these BMS systems look like an amplifier with a big series of transistors along a heatsink doing the heavy lifting and some ICs doing the smart stuff. 

Otherwise cells wired parallel will self regulate.  Sadly down to the level of the weakest cell.   Catastrophic failure would hose your whole bank quickly and one dying prematurely would also rape your life expectency.  Real world you simply can't "smart" charge or manage the type of current we need for big boy car audio, absolute best you could hope to do is remove them periodically and test each individual cell.   Consider pretty much every other battery we use above 5V is multiple cells and if one fails they all go down with it quickly (traditional car batteries included).

On 10/1/2018 at 9:31 AM, Boominburban said:

Ive been running my own DIY LTO lithium batteries most of this year. They are awesome.Different cells though.

Different shape or a different "brand"?   YingLong is doing some really cool things with electric busses in China.

On 10/1/2018 at 11:19 PM, L1ttlet said:

I'm  curious on the LTO builds as all i thought  there was is the lithium iron phosphate. Are these other cells safer? Charge just as fast and everything as the lithiums? I'm  gonna research these as I'd  rather build one of these then get another agm and a h/o alternator. How much did it cost ya if u don't  mind me asking? I know these builds aren't  cheap but much cheaper than buying a premade like jy or limitless one. You haven't  had any issues with this build?  So many questions on building these still.

 

LTO is as stable or moreso than LiFePO4 (you can find videos of abuse testing on youtube, there are no catastrophic failures).  If you can afford the size/weight of AGM I'd say stick to that.  Buy "platinum" or other premium series parts store batteries and kill them right before the warranty is up effectively getting 6-8 years out of your purchase.

Cells were low 20$ range each, plus shipping from China (roughly 2.5 pounds per cell).   Copper bar we used was roughly 200$ per bank's worth (delivered), and we put out another 200$ into nuts, washers, drill bits, cutting oil, sanding wheel, dielectric grease, and other odds and ends.  Figure also the cost of building a small box to house them.   Remember for intents and purposes you can't just apples to apples with amp hour sizes.  While the total storage is the same how much you can use before voltage drops to unuseable and how quickly you can dump that energy are totally different!  100AH LTO, LiFePO4, and AGM are totally different.  The original plan was to buy the A123 LiFePO4 cells and build up 120AH banks which would have been a fair bit smaller and lighter and probably been even better at delivering burst current than the LTO 240AH. 

On 10/3/2018 at 8:11 AM, Boominburban said:

Are you on any of the diy lto groups on facebook? If so, what's your name? If not, you need to be.

I found a lot of good info on electric vehicle forums and DIY "green" energy forums.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So drilling copper bar is an absolute nightmare.  Took us almost 40 man hours to get the bar cut up, drilled and fit.   If I were to do it again I could probably get it done in a bit less time (figured out a lot of stuff the hard way) but just getting the original template piece cut was very tedious.   I'm sure the better metalworking shop you have the better this gets.   I bought the copper from Storm Power Components.  They were very helpful and fast to ship.  They offered custom cutting/machining but like anything you're out for a rather hefty setup cost.   So it would cost probably 20$ per piece to just get 20 cut for you but if you ordered 200 pieces you could probably get it down to a few bucks per piece.    China had some interesting bus options but none were terribly cost effective or practical for our purposes and I'd have still wanted some bar for the terminal end. 

Each cell was within a couple 100ths of a volt resting and banks are resting at 13.48.   We assembled 6P3S banks which will be jumped by those 4 hole bars once they're put in place.  Figured that's a more manageable size to carry around and install.

If the rain ever lets up I'll be building up some boxes for them then drilling some holes in the terminal ends to which I can bolt ring terminals.  For scale, the larger batteries in the picture are the 110AH BatteriesPlus Dekka and the small ones are ATV size ones we bought from Michael Lane a few years back on this forum.

IMG_2003.JPG

IMG_2004.JPG

IMG_2005.JPG

IMG_2006.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cells are roughly the size of a 16oz beer can (do they still even make those?), bolts are 1/2" (or whatever the metric equivalent of that is).   I've got an extra 12 cells here.  6 I bought for a friend and 6 that I may add to mine and go up to 18V

Edited by hispls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create a free account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's free & easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×