Sound System Assistance

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

I have a 2016 Cadillac ATS-V Coupe with the 12 speaker Bose system.

The Caddy's Bose system is not working for me since I'm used to the JBL system comprised of c608GTi comps in the front powered by a PX600.2 and two W10GTi subs powered by a BPX 1100.2 that is installed in my Acura 3.2 TL-S. The JBL system in my Acura is ear candy... The Bose system in my Caddy..... BLose.

I have to keep the stock Caddy HU since it controls pretty much everything in the car.

I have no intentions of altering/cutting door panels or any other interior components in the Caddy. The doors each currently have a Bose 6x9" woofer and 2.5" mid. There's also a 1" tweet in each A-pillar. The distance between all three is not conducive to good imaging although I will say that Bose set the time alignment such that you don't notice it.

I view the center channel speaker, rear panel speakers, and deck mounted mids as useless for a car since I want my sound coming directly at me via the windshield. The deck mounted sub is useless.

I'm only installing what fits this car without visible modifications. I did cut panels in the Acura for the JBL comps but not this time.

I'm also looking to keep as much trunk space as possible while also keeping weight down since additional weight affects the performance of a car. A big, 95# sub box in the trunk is out of the question for this build.

Here are my initial thoughts of what's going in and I would appreciate any feedback from those who can assist me with my decisions:

• Front Speakers - JL Audio C5-650x OR JL Audio C5-570x
  
• Front Amp - JL Audio XD200/2v2
  
• Subs - JL Audio CS210LG-TW1 (Sub box with two 10" TW1 subs designed/built by JL Audio)
  
• Sub Amp - JL Audio XD600/1v2
  
• Processor - AudioControl DQ-61
  

The list above won't be as powerful as the system in my Acura, but I won't have to modify any visible interior components and the trunk should still have plenty of room. The TL woofer box is pretty compact/light considering it houses two 10" subs so the additional weight shouldn't be too bad.

I apologize for the long post but tried to provide as much info as I could regarding how I want to proceed with this build.

I welcome and appreciate all thoughts/suggestions, etc...

Click to read more...

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

The Bose system is going to be the wild card that will make the difference between a straight-forward upgrade and a real challenge. A DQ-61 isn't going to be of much use as it's far too basic. What you need is a professional who can get in and test your Bose amplifier outputs and install a processor solution that will best make the new speakers live up to your high expectations. The signal management is going to make or break the speaker/sub/amp performance.



Regarding the speakers, I'm not a fan of downsizing factory 6x9 woofers to 6.5s or 5x7s, nor do I recommend "deleting" the 2.5" mids. A shop that is capable of integrating successfully into a 2016 Bose system should be able to install 3-way components competently as well. A component set with 6x9s, 2" or 3" mids, and 3/4" or 1" tweeters would utilize 6 of the factory speaker locations.

Depending on how the center speaker works you might need to leave that connected. Can you turn off the multi-channel audio to make it sound more like a traditional stereo system?

 

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

Thank you for your response!!

Installing around the Bose system IS the challenge thanks to the necessity that I keep the stock Cadillac CUE head unit. I'm with you there!

Step one is reining in all of the Bose time alignment, frequency differentials, etc. going to the various speaker components in the car from the Bose amplifier and then presenting normalized signals to the aftermarket amplifiers in a flat response that cancels all of the Bose nonsense allowing to start with a fresh slate.

My initial thought was to go with the JL Audio-FiX86 but I don't merely want a flat response. The JL Audio Fix-86 was designed to take ALL of the Bose amp outputs and normalize them into a flat response for aftermarket amps. I'd then need a unit for time alignment/equalization since the Fix86 only produces a normalized, flat response.

I want the ability for time alignment as well as equalization adjustment - - which the DQ-61 provides. Why do you say the DQ-61 is far too basic? Based upon my understanding, it was designed specifically to do what I'm asking it to do. You input all of the Bose amp outputs to the DQ-61. It takes the signals from each output of the Bose amp, normalizes them and presents them to the aftermarket amps. The DQ-61 then provides for time alignment as well as equalization -- which I agree requires a pro shop to do properly. I'm familiar with the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 but feel its overkill for my intentions since I'm not looking for a competition system.

I'm not a fan of downsizing drivers either. However, I haven't found a component set that encompasses a 6x9" woofer, 2.5" twiddler (as Cadillac calls it) and 1" tweet. I could certainly go with separate components and active crossovers for each…which I’m open to doing assuming the time alignment issue is taken care of. I want the sound blasting in my face from the windshield.

I was originally planning to install the 3-way JL Audio C5-653 component set but realized the 4" mid will require more customization than I'm willing to accept given that it would have to be housed in the stock 2.5" location. I refuse to alter the appearance of the interior. I made that choice up front and have to live with that decision should I not be thrilled with the sound system I end up with.

It's not like I've chosen $hit components/speakers/amps.

When I’m done, this system will be memorable for those who hear it.

As I stated previously, I appreciate all suggestions/corrections to my original plan.

It's all about bang for the buck! Spending an extra $500+ on installation activities that aren't audibly captured is a waste of money....IMO.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

My initial thought was to go with the JL Audio-FiX86 but I don't merely want a flat response. The JL Audio Fix-86 was designed to take ALL of the Bose amp outputs and normalize them into a flat response for aftermarket amps. I'd then need a unit for time alignment/equalization since the Fix86 only produces a normalized, flat response.
I want the ability for time alignment as well as equalization adjustment - - which the DQ-61 provides. Why do you say the DQ-61 is far too basic? Based upon my understanding, it was designed specifically to do what I'm asking it to do. You input all of the Bose amp outputs to the DQ-61. It takes the signals from each output of the Bose amp, normalizes them and presents them to the aftermarket amps. The DQ-61 then provides for time alignment as well as equalization -- which I agree requires a pro shop to do properly. I'm familiar with the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 but feel its overkill for my intentions since I'm not looking for a competition system.

Out of all current or units the FiX processors do the best job when there is not only a variety of high pass and low pass filters but also time alignment to "undo". AudioControl's DM-810 might do an adequate job, but I know of nothing it does to directly address factory time alignment. Summing alone will leave peaks and dips in the signal path, some of which are audible. The proper solution is to add delays to all channels to equal that of the channel(s) with the most delay. JBL MS-8 and JL's FiX products will do it. MS-8 is out of consideration due to obsolescence.

I'm not a fan of downsizing drivers either. However, I haven't found a component set that encompasses a 6x9" woofer, 2.5" twiddler (as Cadillac calls it) and 1" tweet. I could certainly go with separate components and active crossovers for each…which I’m open to doing assuming the time alignment issue is taken care of. I want the sound blasting in my face from the windshield.

Here is one possible combination of many to do 6x9 woofers, 2" mids and 1" tweeters with speakers I offer. The crossovers can be omitted and different tweeters can be substituted.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/veryhappy.gif.fec4fed33b4a1279cf10bdd45a039dae.gif

 

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

I know nothing about CDT products so I'd have to do some digging to research them.

I'm familiar with Image Dynamics, JL Audio and JBL GTi series so am curious as to how the CDT products compare.

Can you tell me the Fs for the 6x9 and the 2.5" mid?

 

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

Out of all current or units the FiX processors do the best job when there is not only a variety of high pass and low pass filters but also time alignment to "undo". AudioControl's DM-810 might do an adequate job, but I know of nothing it does to directly address factory time alignment. Summing alone will leave peaks and dips in the signal path, some of which are audible. The proper solution is to add delays to all channels to equal that of the channel(s) with the most delay. JBL MS-8 and JL's FiX products will do it. MS-8 is out of consideration due to obsolescence.

You nailed it.

It looks like step one is using the FiX 86 to "clean" up the Bose signals coming from the front channel high/mid/low as well as the stock sub and then feed the cleaned up signals to a DSP. The DM-810 can't do it on its own and as you said, the MS-8 is not in consideration.

JBL has really let me down when it comes to staying in the high end car audio market. My GTi system is phenomenal but apparently is no longer available nor even on their website. I guess they just decided to stick with home audio.

All of that being said, what is your familiarity with the JL Audio TwK-88 for system tuning? Assuming you've got a cleaned up response from a FiX, what would you choose as the DSP?

Oh boy, this is going to get pricey!

 

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

If I'm going down this road and plan to utilize all of the current door/a-pillar locations for components, I want to bi-amp the front comps. How do you bi-amp a three way component set? I'd prefer to use active crossovers rather than passive which would be easy to do with a two way comp set but not so much with a three way. Do I bi-amp the mids/tweets (along with a passive x-over) and get a 2 channel amp for the door woofers? Obviously the subs will get their own.

You're the expert!! I'm your grasshopper...

I look forward to your response!

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

I look forward to your response!

I have new information and answers to questions forthcoming. I will be replying in-depth later today.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

I know nothing about CDT products so I'd have to do some digging to research them.
I'm familiar with Image Dynamics, JL Audio and JBL GTi series so am curious as to how the CDT products compare.

Can you tell me the Fs for the 6x9 and the 2.5" mid?

The 2" mid, which can actually be used without a tweeter if desired, has an Fs of 155 Hz.

The 6x9 pictured may vary from my final recommendation. We can do 4 ohms vs 2 ohms, more bass-oriented(slide the recommended window of frequencies toward the left of the scale) vs midbass, and that will affect Fs.

I can answer or get answers to technical questions, but the bottom line is I want to tailor an upgrade specifically for you.

You nailed it.
It looks like step one is using the FiX 86 to "clean" up the Bose signals coming from the front channel high/mid/low as well as the stock sub and then feed the cleaned up signals to a DSP. The DM-810 can't do it on its own and as you said, the MS-8 is not in consideration.

All of that being said, what is your familiarity with the JL Audio TwK-88 for system tuning? Assuming you've got a cleaned up response from a FiX, what would you choose as the DSP?

Oh boy, this is going to get pricey!

I have learned that AudioControl DM-810 is not quite as limited as I previously thought. I was not aware it has time alignment for the input that is separate from the output. TwK-88 looks like a nice processor and I've read praise of the software for system tuning. I offer Core-1 by Massive Audio.

Core-1 is simple to set up and the equalizer settings are very powerful. The power limiters available could potentially save your speakers from damage, and the power management feature can help save you from killing your battery when running the sound system with the engine off. No other processor offers that combination of features.



Yes. I do this with 2-way passive crossovers for the mids and tweeters, and you have your choice of amplification. A 4-channel amplifier could handle the front speakers in this manner.

 

[bozzchem 10+ year member]

The 2" mid, which can actually be used without a tweeter if desired, has an Fs of 155 Hz.
The 6x9 pictured may vary from my final recommendation. We can do 4 ohms vs 2 ohms, more bass-oriented(slide the recommended window of frequencies toward the left of the scale) vs midbass, and that will affect Fs.

I can answer or get answers to technical questions, but the bottom line is I want to tailor an upgrade specifically for you.

I have learned that AudioControl DM-810 is not quite as limited as I previously thought. I was not aware it has time alignment for the input that is separate from the output. TwK-88 looks like a nice processor and I've read praise of the software for system tuning. I offer Core-1 by Massive Audio.

Core-1 is simple to set up and the equalizer settings are very powerful. The power limiters available could potentially save your speakers from damage, and the power management feature can help save you from killing your battery when running the sound system with the engine off. No other processor offers that combination of features.

It will require JL FiX-82 to be installed "ahead" of it in the signal path for reasons mentioned earlier.

Yes. I do this with 2-way passive crossovers for the mids and tweeters, and you have your choice of amplification. A 4-channel amplifier could handle the front speakers in this manner.

Yes, brain fart on my end there. For a front channel bi-amp setup, I'd use a 4 channel amp for the front. Two channels for the 6x9 midwoofs and two for the mid/tweet combo with a passive xover between the mid/tweet. I'd lose the ability to tweak the mid/tweet interface but would assume the passive xover does the job properly. My concern here would be how to adjust the imaging with a DSP since the mid/tweet are linked on the channel via the passive xover.

I could skip the 2" mid and go with a 1" pillar mount tweet OR skip the tweet and go with your 2" door mounted all in one. In my mind, that would allow for more options for tweaking the imaging settings....but being unfamiliar with a 2" all in one makes me nervous about its capabilities.

I'm also concerned about using a silk tweeter since I'm used to the GTi titanium tweeter and I'm used to horns in my Klipsch home theater system. Going to silk would be a big change based upon my knowledge of how they sound. I don't have first hand experience.

The subs will get their own mono amp. The subs are the easy part.

The hard part is getting the front soundstage the way I want it.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with for my situation. I've done a bit of digging and see the CDT brand gets mixed reviews. I'm guessing the HD series would be what I'm looking for?

I want this to sound as good or better than my JBL GTi system!

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

Yes, brain fart on my end there. For a front channel bi-amp setup, I'd use a 4 channel amp for the front. Two channels for the 6x9 midwoofs and two for the mid/tweet combo with a passive xover between the mid/tweet. I'd lose the ability to tweak the mid/tweet interface but would assume the passive xover does the job properly. My concern here would be how to adjust the imaging with a DSP since the mid/tweet are linked on the channel via the passive xover.

The passive crossovers have level adjustments the tweeters. Tweeters should not require much EQ, so the bulk of the EQ bands for those 2 channels would be available for the midrange, where anomalies are more offensive.

I could skip the 2" mid and go with a 1" pillar mount tweet OR skip the tweet and go with your 2" door mounted all in one. In my mind, that would allow for more options for tweaking the imaging settings....but being unfamiliar with a 2" all in one makes me nervous about its capabilities.

In my experience, the 2" without a small tweeter will have incredible mids(vocals, instruments) with tame highs. The 2" gives the option to quite comfortably allow a lot of midrange to play, which is beneficial for raising the sound stage. I imagine what you hear currently is the presence of most of the sound coming from up above the dash.

I'm also concerned about using a silk tweeter since I'm used to the GTi titanium tweeter and I'm used to horns in my Klipsch home theater system. Going to silk would be a big change based upon my knowledge of how they sound. I don't have first hand experience.

This is simple: CDT has titanium tweeters.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with for my situation. I've done a bit of digging and see the CDT brand gets mixed reviews. I'm guessing the HD series would be what I'm looking for?
I want this to sound as good or better than my JBL GTi system!

I'd like to e-mail you a proposal. Please send me a message to sales@rubyservsales.com at your earliest convenience.

Barry

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

I look forward to seeing what you come up with for my situation.

I just sent you an e-mail.