Old School to now

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Science vs real world, documented, time tested, proven over and over again, golden ear failures. My own personal experience with pretty nice amps of a vast verity. Tuning a solid SQ car used for critical listening testing THD levels.

The test aren't valid. No one that builds equipment believes that.. lol

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

yes you can get a good idea..

No.... some manufacturers have been artificially inflating fuse ratings for years....for suckers like you apparently.

I'll run the lanzar amp if you send it my way for free. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Otherwise I'll stick with my current amps for the epeen factor since I already have them in hand.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

No.... some manufacturers have been artificially inflating fuse ratings for years....for suckers like you apparently.
I'll run the lanzar amp if you send it my way for free. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Otherwise I'll stick with my current amps for the epeen factor since I already have them in hand.

What are fuses used for? What is the purpose of fusing at the amp? And I'd bet you that amp does 75x4. Put your monies up il by it and test it..

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

No.... some manufacturers have been artificially inflating fuse ratings for years....for suckers like you apparently.
I'll run the lanzar amp if you send it my way for free. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Otherwise I'll stick with my current amps for the epeen factor since I already have them in hand.

Fyi. Suckers like me understand good engineering and good products. Lol

Phoenix Gold Xenon X200.4

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

The Sound of Audio Amplifiers: Can you hear a difference between Amps? | Audioholics

Again when pushed into clipping. Again overhead would be a better solution nowadays. Power is cheap.

Mainly anecdotal evidence where amps weren't level matched. The only actual measurements were done to a Marantz amplifier...again at clipping (I didn't watch the video as my wife is watching a movie atm, so if they were in the vid I'll update once and if I watch it.)

Comparing "rated" amps as apples to apples doesn't give you valid results. I could compare a RF Punch 45 to a comparably rated pyramid....we both know that the power differences would be substantial and make the RF sound better even though both would be rated ~ the same.

So if you are such a purist why is your amp design the same generic one thats been floating around forever? Design a better one.

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

Fyi. Suckers like me understand good engineering and good products. Lol Phoenix Gold Xenon X200.4

Did you write that review? Otherwise where's the waveforms when clipping? According to you it may still be a crap amp.....

Still no proof anywhere you understand good engineering. Make a better amp. I'll buy it once you show me the improved convolution when approaching clipping and improved "load handling" when not being pushed hard.

What are fuses used for? What is the purpose of fusing at the amp? And I'd bet you that amp does 75x4. Put your monies up il by it and test it..

So you're telling me no manufacturer would be willing to fudge fuse ratings especially one willing to post inflated power ratings?

Why would I put my money up to prove/disprove your point? You made 20k in 2 months. You can afford it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I personally could care less about the waveform when the amp is being pushed. I have plenty of overhead so that's a moot point.

Show me the different waveform from 2 amps not being pushed hard. You claimed at the get go amps sound different regardless of how hard you're pushing them.

 

[JohnKuthe]

How about this. Clipping is distortion but not all distortion is clipping.

Exactly! Clipping is a strict subset of distortion, unless a performer is using the clipping in their audio work and then it's intentional and not considered distortion. I know, I was in a band, the Cheep Effects, and we used lots of thing for our audio sculptures! Distortion, time variance, sheet of Masonite, a Bugs Bunny hand puppet with voice! Basically anything we could find to make noise.

John Kuthe...

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

I always think about using all old school amps just for the sack of having them. But I always go back to reality and realize they won't last much longer. Also it's hard to find ones display worthy and matching sets. Unless it Rockford.

Have several Autotek white Mean Machines and BTS series that still perform very well. after 15 years, and no new caps yet, and still look fantastic,and still run

 

[llebcire]

Everybody is moving to class D across the board. D does not mean Digital. Smaller foot print, way better efficiency, more power for the money.

People can't tell which is which in a blind test ever. And most of the top cars that compete in sound quality are using class D. It's just so much more clean power.

Every brand you knew in the 90s has either been bought out multiple times or just sells mass market products.

We have way better box modeling software. Even the worst sounding subs can do very well now.

And the DSP market is growing as the head unit market is shrinking.

We now know you don't need sealed boxes to sound good

We now know a clean watt will always sound the same as any other clean watt

We also know you don't need small subs to hit fast and large subs to play low.

We can get single 12s to hang with a full blown clamshell of the 90s.

Wow - thanks for starting this off!

After your post I checked out Class D and we were under the wrong impression the "D" stood for digital - but hey, that was 25 years ago

This thread is talking about sound quality and while I'm almost 50 and can't hear like I could when I was 25, I used to judge an amp by the way it handled female vocals and instruments like horns (i.e. saxophone) at high volumes as many amps don't do well under this type of stress and sound harsh. I also found that when amps were clipping under this stress it would make my ears ring where amps like the Lanzar would allow me to listen at high volumes for extended periods of time without walking away with ringing ears.

I noticed that many of the old "Made in America" amps have changed significantly and now people are using brands I've never heard of - time for some research!

Interesting you bring up sealed vs. ported as that's exactly the way we thought. Sealed for slower roll-off on the bottom end, ported for bump in output and "usually" not as musical (certainly were exceptions), band-pass sounded like an air pump more than a speaker (especially higher order) and few (if any) used transmission line in a car. Additionally, 12" drivers always seemed to hit the "sweet spot" of output (vs. 10's) and transient response (vs. 15's) and I'm planning on a single 12 in my car.

You also mention that almost all subs sound good now with enhanced modeling software? What - no one uses the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook? Lol. I have a friend who wants to see me a older (but never used/still in box) 12" Alpine Type R and until last week I wouldn't have ever considered an Alpine for anything other than a head unit. The reviews I read seem to like the driver but I'm curious as to what the reviewers listen to. I love rap and bass heavy music but I'll also listen to Jazz, Rock, etc. based on my mood and I need to hear one of these drivers.

I say a video on here (2005 Altima build thread) where one 12 was flexing the car. That amazes me! We would need 4 18's in a diamond shaped box to accomplish that.

-Eric

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

What are fuses used for? What is the purpose of fusing at the amp? And I'd bet you that amp does 75x4. Put your monies up il by it and test it..

Fuses are used to prevent fire in event of catastrophic failure. Do you honestly believe that the fusing supplied with most amps will actually protect the amp?

Read the **** article. This isn't guessing game it's FACTS AND MEASURMENTS

The only measurements in that article were from the absolute worst amp they could find with THD of 3% and Damping factor of 3 (and likely frequency response issues as well) vs some 7500$ Denon. The point of "you can't hear the difference" flies out the window if you chose something that's that terrible. I'd wager that even the cheapest modern amp coming out of China doesn't have those problems. They cookie cutter decent designs, if a bit antiquated.

You don't have a clue how reactance or inductance affects drivers or amps. I've tried to teach but no..Cables get hot and aren't perfect conductors will I argue they alone will sound better or worse? No. But combining all the factors n the electrical pathway they can have an affect on dampening reactance etc...

No, you don't "try to teach", you throw out fancy sounding words that you read in somebody's marketing literature to confuse people who don't actually know what those terms mean. Again, barring the most extreme examples of poor design damping factor is a non issue. This can be proven with mathematics Damping Factor: Effects On System Response | Audioholics

Seriously. The science behind the unique sound is there. You can refuse but it's there embrace it..

There is absolutely no science there. I did not see any waveforms pictured which are changed somehow by silver capacitors or whatever other unicorn tears or fairy dust you believe is going to fool the electrons into sounding better. Their only credible examples of people being able to hear the difference was obvious frequency response issues (which could easily be fixed with EQ and honestly anybody who thinks they can hear the difference will be using EQ anyway), extreme low damping factor, THD, or behavior when clipping.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any amp built today for retail sale that has damping factor of 3 or over 3% THD at unclipped output levels.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Did you write that review? Otherwise where's the waveforms when clipping? According to you it may still be a crap amp.....
Still no proof anywhere you understand good engineering. Make a better amp. I'll buy it once you show me the improved convolution when approaching clipping and improved "load handling" when not being pushed hard.

So you're telling me no manufacturer would be willing to fudge fuse ratings especially one willing to post inflated power ratings?

Why would I put my money up to prove/disprove your point? You made 20k in 2 months. You can afford it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I personally could care less about the waveform when the amp is being pushed. I have plenty of overhead so that's a moot point.

Show me the different waveform from 2 amps not being pushed hard. You claimed at the get go amps sound different regardless of how hard you're pushing them.

Did you actually read he arrival? It's a few pages long and they measure more than one amp.. lol

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Of course fusing is smugged that wasn't the question. I asked you what's the purpose of fusing at the amp.

The amp I have is actually a pretty decent amp.

I prefer the bjt output as compared to MOSFET. If you know how the triple Darlington works you understand it is a different topologly. Is it the best? Not nessicarlly.. I don't use super high-end gear because the amp I have is plenty powerful and clean.

I never said I could design a better amp. I said some designs are clearly superior.. beat amps I've heard to date where lunar amps..

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Wow - thanks for starting this off!
After your post I checked out Class D and we were under the wrong impression the "D" stood for digital - but hey, that was 25 years ago

This thread is talking about sound quality and while I'm almost 50 and can't hear like I could when I was 25, I used to judge an amp by the way it handled female vocals and instruments like horns (i.e. saxophone) at high volumes as many amps don't do well under this type of stress and sound harsh. I also found that when amps were clipping under this stress it would make my ears ring where amps like the Lanzar would allow me to listen at high volumes for extended periods of time without walking away with ringing ears.

I noticed that many of the old "Made in America" amps have changed significantly and now people are using brands I've never heard of - time for some research!

Interesting you bring up sealed vs. ported as that's exactly the way we thought. Sealed for slower roll-off on the bottom end, ported for bump in output and "usually" not as musical (certainly were exceptions), band-pass sounded like an air pump more than a speaker (especially higher order) and few (if any) used transmission line in a car. Additionally, 12" drivers always seemed to hit the "sweet spot" of output (vs. 10's) and transient response (vs. 15's) and I'm planning on a single 12 in my car.

You also mention that almost all subs sound good now with enhanced modeling software? What - no one uses the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook? Lol. I have a friend who wants to see me a older (but never used/still in box) 12" Alpine Type R and until last week I wouldn't have ever considered an Alpine for anything other than a head unit. The reviews I read seem to like the driver but I'm curious as to what the reviewers listen to. I love rap and bass heavy music but I'll also listen to Jazz, Rock, etc. based on my mood and I need to hear one of these drivers.

I say a video on here (2005 Altima build thread) where one 12 was flexing the car. That amazes me! We would need 4 18's in a diamond shaped box to accomplish that.

-Eric

Any amp that's well built and reliable will sound fine. I'd recommend checking out Zed Audio lineup if you liked his Lanzar amps back in the day (he also made the Crunch, ESX, Rodek, Autotek, US Acoustics, Alphasonic, Hifonics, Planet Audio, and a few others in that era). They have great on-board crossover options, are very efficient, and have performed very well for me. Otherwise, as you say there's plenty of brands you've never heard of that'll do well. Many of them are just the same circuit in different heatsinks with different brand names, but with the internet, it's pretty easy to figure out which companies have a good or bad reputation.

The reason certain size subs or types of boxes never sounded good 25 years ago was largely due to design. Anemic motors trying to control 15" cones (outside of PA application) perform poorly, and subs built with no care about the alignment were hit or miss. Power is cheap, space is at a premium. The trailblazers in the industry have been gearing towards a tradeoff of efficiency for space saving, thus we have 1200W 12" woofer that'll perform in 2-3 cubic feet. Designing subs to work optimally in ported alignment has been the way this is achieved. That said, there's still a handful of good sounding options that'll perform in sealed but with modern designs there's almost no reason to go there.

Alpine actually makes some pretty decent stuff these days (head units are still in the top tier). Their class D full range amps are nice and their type R component speakers and subwoofers sound great. About 8 years ago they had a type X that was really top end audiophile tier speakers. You missed the boat on that, but the R series is still good for big box store brand. IMO you can do better for the price, but if you want to stick to one of the more widely available/known brands Alpine is all around quite nice.... not going to win you competitions or do extreme duty, but sound good and will perform as advertised. JL is still very good (and still horrific MSRP), Rockford has some low end stuff that's a little janky but their higher end stuff is quite nice. JBL/Infinity also has a pretty nice lineup as far as mainstream brands who do their own R&D still. Phoenix Gold has gone through some phases, but they have a few good lines of amps today.

November always has some sick deals from online vendors and late December you can pick up used gear on these forums for stupid cheap.

Did you actually read he arrival? It's a few pages long and they measure more than one amp.. lol

The only examples of hearing the difference were a couple obscure/obsolete designs and one cheap amp that had specs so horrid that it should have never been sold to begin with. As Richard Clark (and others) have stated, issues with frequency response should be handled with EQ anyway. Otherwise I didn't see any O-scope pictures of where different amps amplify a signal differently.

Also, you must have no self respect at all to post your atrocious typing and grammar errors. Even a cell phone has auto correct these days and if you can't be bothered to make even a half arsed effort to express your point articulately, why would you expect any of us to take you seriously or put any more effort into dealing with you? I'm far from a grammar policeman, but FFS the gibberish you post and expect us to try to decipher is just plain insulting.

 

[llebcire]

I still have and run my old school Zeds,and others.Still work great and still sound really clean/nice.I run a mixture as well of A/B and class D. THD is still a great factor to consider when buying new and old in my opinion.Id rather have closer to a lower TDH,than a higher TDH newer amp.Some older amps are better than new, and some newer amps are better than the older.The majority, if not all are no longer being made here at home/USA,and most with cheaper parts.Id research before buying

This is what I've been thinking - using a Class D for the sub and a Class AB for everything else. This seems to be the trend for manufacturers, such as Hifonics and Oz Audio, where their mono blocks are Class D and their mids and highs are driven by Class AB.

Several years ago I had a Rockford Fosgate P3001, think it was Class D, that seemed to control a pair of Series 1 12's quite well. I see the advantage as increased efficiency, leading to less heat and current draw, where any sound quality of the Class D would be hidden by the natural flaws with a sub and the fact that they wouldn't be audible in sub 80 Hz ranges. I'm not saying I could hear a difference in the two technologies with mids and highs but it would be nearly impossible to hear a difference in a sub that's in the trunk of a car.

-Eric

 

[JohnKuthe]

...Even a cell phone has auto correct these days. ...

You mean AutoMistake!!

John Kuthe...