Need somethin better than the W7

lol Warren i guess u don't know who Warbleed is. I wouldn't doubt him coming back, posting information backing what he said...almost guarantee it. He is definitely a very knowledgable person
Yes...but theory and real world applications don't always agree...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
Yes...but theory and real world applications don't always agree...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Yea but the guy is really smart...

But who said "Theory..the stuff SPL guys prove wrong.."

Stereo Integrity Rep. Enough said.
So I take it a JL dealer is a Stereo Integrity rep?

Really? What is this based on? Have you heard and compared all these in similar installs? Proably not.
Yea..seeing as he works for a shop and plays with these subs daily..I figure he knows what he is talking about. Am I wrong? "probably not"

W7...excellent woofer, but it can be "beat."
I resently dropped off one of my Magnum at a local JL dealer to let them play with it, they love the Mag. They did a drop in...W7 v. Magnum and played with them both for a long time. I believe that they were impressed and will no longer be saying that the W7 is the "best" woofer.
Every..EVERY person who I have played the D2 for does not believe it is a 12,and that only 500w are going to it. Noone has ever said "well this dude's w7 sounds better." It is always "theres no way thats a f*ckin 12 man"

D2 is hands down the best sub I have ever heard.

Loudest,no, but 138 sealed w/ 500w aint bad..

 
Theory can sometimes correlate to real world performance...but when someone claims X sub has 2 mm more xmax than Y sub...when are you going to use those 2 mm? Will the distortion levels that differentiate because of the longer throwing woofer be audible? No.

Of course things on paper help greatly to correlate to real world expecations, but there is a limitation to how much it helps.

 
Theory can sometimes correlate to real world performance...but when someone claims X sub has 2 mm more xmax than Y sub...when are you going to use those 2 mm? Will the distortion levels that differentiate because of the longer throwing woofer be audible? No.
Of course things on paper help greatly to correlate to real world expecations, but there is a limitation to how much it helps.
Very true indeed.

Im just saying that sometimes what is one paper doesn't always mean what is going to happen,happens.

 
lol Warren i guess u don't know who Warbleed is. I wouldn't doubt him coming back, posting information backing what he said...almost guarantee it. He is definitely a very knowledgable person

it is subjective......

saying that not any of the woofers will be a w7 is a very risky comment and can only be made by a person who is on 1 side of the line, and probably has NOT heard all the high model subwoofers in differnet applications (installs, cars, difference in power)....

 
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/handclap.gif.0c301076f534e244f0460706894f19e0.gif
 
seem like subjective statements to me
Nope. Just the facts of the designs, actually. The H2, Brahma, XXX, and W7 all have flat BL curves, and the Brahma, XXX, and W7 also all have very flat Cms curves.

Now perhaps you are very new to this, so I'll explain it. Suspension and BL nonlinearites combine for a total of about 80-90% of all loudspeaker distortion, so by improving the linearity of both, we get TREMENDOUS increases in driver accuracy.

Not just "on paper" either. Anywhere, for any purpose. BL linearity allows you to have far greater efficiency across higher power levels as well, because unlike conventional loudspeakers, you aren't getting a steep increase in distortion (and heat) caused by BL loss.

Feel free to look up some research at:

http://www.klippel.de/

http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/

http://www.adireaudio.com

JL also has some information related to it in their W7 pamphlet, and its certainly worth checking out.

If you think any of the things I said are subjective, then you need to educate yourself a wee bit more...

 
Theory can sometimes correlate to real world performance...but when someone claims X sub has 2 mm more xmax than Y sub...when are you going to use those 2 mm? Will the distortion levels that differentiate because of the longer throwing woofer be audible? No.
Of course things on paper help greatly to correlate to real world expecations, but there is a limitation to how much it helps.
Theory actually correlates very well with the real world. Simply showing an extreme example of two drivers with very little difference (in both measurable and audible terms) hardly proves your argument.

Not ALL measurable differences are audible. I don't believe anyone claimed that they were in this entire thread, so it seems to refute a claim which was never made.

Audibility is subjective, so speculating about it is often a poor idea. Objective data is quite easily interpreted, and by its very nature is free of any bias. It's data. Period.

Displacement VERY accurately predicts differences in linear output across a driver's usable bandwidth. Now obviously for the test to be of any validity we must hold all other factors constant.

One problem is that many people conduct piss poor comparisons. The results of these poorly designed "experiments" disagree with what Science would predict, and then they ignorantly fault Science, rather than their inability to conduct a valid test, which is the REAL issue at hand.

As far as driver linearity goes, a few mm of xmax isn't likely to make much of a difference when we're comparing drivers with such high levels of displacement, but that certainly doesn't mean that all or even most xmax differences won't result in an audible difference.

Another highly irritating problem is that many people try and generalize all objective data as "what's on paper", and for God knows what reason, they assume that a T/S sheet is the epitome of objective evaluation, and furthermore try and rebutt the claim that a T/S sheet provides all necessary data for objective evaluation, even though no person, who has even a mediocre understanding of the subject, would ever make such a claim. It's a bizarre phenomenon that continues to baffle me, but time and time again I hear the same tired, baseless "argument" rear its ugly head.

So, in summation:

Will a T/S sheet tell you everything you need to know about a driver? NO.

Will a detailed objective evaluation of a driver be able to? Yes.

Do most people even have the faintest idea what that is? NO.

Do the Laws of Physics cease to exist in your car? NO.

Is comparing woofers across installs intelligent? NO.

Is it even meaningful at all? NO.

Is making conclusions about a DRIVER based upon hearing it in AN INSTALL very intelligent? NO.

If a woofer gets louder than another at a bass farting competition, does that mean the driver will play music more loudly (across the entire bandwidth) as well? HELL NO. YOU SHOULD BE SLAPPED WITH A 2X4 IF THIS THOUGHT EVEN ENTERS YOUR MIND.

 
I know exactly what sub is better than the W7 for SQ along with SPL. Its the MEMPHIS LVS SUBS. The W7 cannot touch the LVS subs for SQ. The Memphis LVS subs hit way more bass notes than the W7. We have tried Digital Design, Treo, W7's, etc. etc. nothing hits like the Memphis LVS.
http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/P13_LVS_Subw.htm
Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there.

The LVS is certainly an interesting speaker, and due to the nature of the design, certainly promotes an absolute minimum of voice coil rocking, but beyond that, there is really nothing special about the design at all.

It doesn't have all that much displacement, nor an exceptionally low inductance, nor amazing BL linearity, nor does it have a particularly large amount of linear suspension travel.

Now as to what exactly "hits way more bass notes" is supposed to mean, I cannot even begin to guess, as the statement demonstrates a rather poor understanding of what we are referring to anyway.

The design isn't all that extraordinary, save for the dual basket design which allows excellent control over the voice coil, but ultimately, given the length of the coil, it's not a terribly realistic concern for this design anyway.

The driver just uses the standard TC Sounds TC9 motor. With a 0.5" TP and a 1.6" 4 layer VC. Xmax is fairly honestly rated, given the VC:Gap ratio and overhang.

It's an interesting woofer, but in terms of linearity, it pales in comparison to just about every other woofer mentioned here, except for the CSX.

 
there are other subs besides the d2 that should be mentioned

Sorry, but I don't spout off about products I haven't used. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I only recommend those that I have used and have had a good experience with, I'm sorry if you feel otherwise... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 
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