Need opinion on good 3000+ amp

Damping factor is much less about "cheap vs expensive" amp and more about design. The Helix Msix I ran had a damping factor of 100 and its a 500 dollar amp from an "audiophile" company.

Cheap vs expensive amp isn't exactly a fair comparison because "cheap" mosfets are technically the same as "expensive" mosfets. The difference is batching. Higher end amps buy rated batches of mosfets so thst their specs are closely matched. This let's the amp run cooler and perform better while also increasing reliability.

When you have paired components with different values, one will work harder than the other and that causes problems. The SIA series of amps is a Chinese build house special. The salt series was designed specifically for Jacob. The salt is just a better amp all around.

All in all damping factor is a spec like "max power" in my eyes. I don't rely on the amp to control my subs, nor should anyone else. More expensive amps are designed better and built with closer matched components that make them work better. Alot of the potential issues you have brought up could just come down to running an amp too close to its limits.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm not trying to change your opinion. Damping factor could be one way to quantify a better alp, but in my experience it's just another number slapped on a box.

Matt

Can you post a link to that amp? I’d love to study it some haha 🤓

Wouldn’t damping factor possibly have to do with the quality of the output filtration parts and fundamental amp circuitry, if, and only if, all amps were measured at the same frequency and ohm load?

And it seems too that mosfets might be very well a factor in damping, or rather the stress that can be put on them, if what the sub is doing is trying to change their state harshly. The salt amps have a 400 damping factor, iirc. I bet the SIA line is around 100 or something, but idk if I can find that.
 
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Can you post a link to that amp? I’d love to study it some haha 🤓

Wouldn’t damping factor possibly have to do with the quality of the output filtration parts and fundamental amp circuitry, if, and only if, all amps were measured at the same frequency and ohm load?

And it seems too that mosfets might be very well a factor in damping, or rather the stress that can be put on them, if what the sub is doing is trying to change their state harshly. The salt amps have a 400 damping factor, iirc. I bet the SIA line is around 100 or something, but idk if I can find that.


I also had the pleasure running this amp for a short period on my midrange/tweeter combo:


And my all-time favorite stage amp the Mikro IV only has a damping fsctor of like 75.

Damping factor is one of those obscure things we know about but don't fully understand it seems. You can read 3 different articles and they will give you 3 different examples of how it works. Not a single way I've heard it explained or I've read it explained makes sense when I took it into a real-world context. I'm not an electrical or mechanical genius by any means. But some of these damping factor claims seem eerily reminiscent of the flat earth movement.


Until an amp comes out with a damping factor of 10,000 or more, measured like Mosconi measured theirs, it's not relevant to me.

Matt
 

I also had the pleasure running this amp for a short period on my midrange/tweeter combo:


And my all-time favorite stage amp the Mikro IV only has a damping fsctor of like 75.

Damping factor is one of those obscure things we know about but don't fully understand it seems. You can read 3 different articles and they will give you 3 different examples of how it works. Not a single way I've heard it explained or I've read it explained makes sense when I took it into a real-world context. I'm not an electrical or mechanical genius by any means. But some of these damping factor claims seem eerily reminiscent of the flat earth movement.


Until an amp comes out with a damping factor of 10,000 or more, measured like Mosconi measured theirs, it's not relevant to me.

Matt

I totally think there should be more digestible amp info where you could see more about the quality of the amp, especially with sub amps, just because of all the hell some people put them through. I don’t fully understand the extent of what damping factor is, but I’ve genuinely noticed a difference in comparing common amps that a lot of people use, especially within the same brand. It’s still just numbers on a screen, and amps are complicated.

I’m just educated guessing on this, but I suspect damping factor has to do with the load/stress the woofer has on mosfets when they’re opening their gates to boost the signal waveform. You may not need hardly any damping if you have super awesome mosfets with digital amps, because their material and design qualities allow them to function properly under high stress. If the output filtration part contained capacitors that would dampen the electricity created and/or influenced by too rapid/strong of coil motion, that would make a lot of sense, to me. Like in a full bridge, the mosfets seem fundamentally more likely to have problem dealing with high powered and high coil speed (1-way) woofer movements, unless it had good output filtration, in the same way a wire heats up from too much current. I think output filtration works two ways, because the electricity is AC, and both speaker terminals flip polarities, so the sub can send energy back into the amp, if you have a lower end full bridge, for example. I highly suspect that’s why they’ll cut out or not sound good under some stressful conditions. Just a theory. Not an amp expert.
 
I’m not sure I can accurately or simply post up all those comparisons + the board type and have it easily digestible
OK, so just name 3 amps with output impedance so high as to potentially cause issues.

what internal factors of an amp determine output impedance (seemingly much to do with the output filtration)?
One that you can't seem to get around is the output filter which is an inductor, the higher the switching frequency of the power supply the lower the inductance needed. Otherwise low output impedance seems to be generally accomplished through applying negative feedback.

many cheap full bridges have a damping factor of ~100 or something.
And that audioholics link proves with math that the difference between 10 and 2000 is almost nothing. If whatever shitty Chinese amp is performing poorly high output impedance probably is not the culprit.
 
damping factor has to do with the load/stress the woofer has on mosfets when they’re opening their gates to boost the signal waveform.
No it does not.
the sub can send energy back into the amp
The sub "sees" the output impedance which for anything besides a tube amp or some theoretical designs not used in commercial audio amplifiers is nearly a dead short. The "breaking " effect on the cone doesn't come from the amp it comes from the woofer's coil and the magnetic field it is in. Take a coil and drop it down the gap of a motor and it'll plunk right to the bottom. Now short the coil leads and try to move the coil quickly through the gap and you will feel a good bit of resistance. You may be able to verify this by just pushing on the cone of a woofer with a soft suspension with and without the leads shorted.

This is what low output impedance accomplishes to put the breaks on the cone and "control" ringing.
 
No it does not.

The sub "sees" the output impedance which for anything besides a tube amp or some theoretical designs not used in commercial audio amplifiers is nearly a dead short. The "breaking " effect on the cone doesn't come from the amp it comes from the woofer's coil and the magnetic field it is in. Take a coil and drop it down the gap of a motor and it'll plunk right to the bottom. Now short the coil leads and try to move the coil quickly through the gap and you will feel a good bit of resistance. You may be able to verify this by just pushing on the cone of a woofer with a soft suspension with and without the leads shorted.

This is what low output impedance accomplishes to put the breaks on the cone and "control" ringing.

See, you coulda just been this way from the beginning.

When the coil is energized in the gap, though, that coil itself is emitting an electromagnetic field. IMO, and it’s fine if you think I’m wrong on this: I think there’s certain conditions with many factors outside of the electrical system (as well) where the coil isn’t charged in an aligned phase, and there’s too much feedback back into the amp, including varying pressures across the woofer cone vs the back, that causes electrical feedback into the amp, IMO. With a harmonic system, with how phases and timing works, I don’t see how that’s not possible at some level. There’s still qualities to those internal components and how they’re used, especially if the timing is off. Like, inductors still have a capacitance and harmonic qualities. Even if damping factor isn’t represented in a fair way or in a relevant way, I still can’t help but see that as a factor when buying/comparing amps. I’m not saying that a low DF will ruin your system, either.

If poor design or poor quality causes dysfunction within any part of the amp due to rapid frequency shifts in real life (certain harmonic situations), it just seems like the sub could absolutely cause the amp to have issues. I’ve switched out amps before where literally nothing changes but the amp (nothing was blown at all) and directly noticed a wider bandwidth before on the same day from the same or very similar wattage rating, either personally or from installing. I’ve had box design customers that have described the exact same thing, and those tended to be more popular and cheaper full bridge amps with the problems. Idk what to do about this. That’s just been my experience dude, and the only factor manufacturers seem to give that would explain this seems to be the damping factor, even though it’s probably lacking in its completeness.
 
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See, you coulda just been this way from the beginning.

When the coil is energized in the gap, though, that coil itself is emitting an electromagnetic field. IMO, and it’s fine if you think I’m wrong on this: I think there’s certain conditions with many factors outside of the electrical system (as well) where the coil isn’t charged in an aligned phase, and there’s too much feedback back into the amp, including varying pressures across the woofer cone vs the back, that causes electrical feedback into the amp, IMO. With a harmonic system, with how phases and timing works, I don’t see how that’s not possible at some level. There’s still qualities to those internal components and how they’re used, especially if the timing is off. Like, inductors still have a capacitance and harmonic qualities. Even if damping factor isn’t represented in a fair way or in a relevant way, I still can’t help but see that as a factor when buying/comparing amps. I’m not saying that a low DF will ruin your system, either.

If poor design or poor quality causes dysfunction within any part of the amp due to rapid frequency shifts in real life (certain harmonic situations), it just seems like the sub could absolutely cause the amp to have issues. I’ve switched out amps before where literally nothing changes but the amp (nothing was blown at all) and directly noticed a wider bandwidth before on the same day from the same or very similar wattage rating, either personally or from installing. I’ve had box design customers that have described the exact same thing, and those tended to be more popular and cheaper full bridge amps with the problems. Idk what to do about this. That’s just been my experience dude, and the only factor manufacturers seem to give that would explain this seems to be the damping factor, even though it’s probably lacking in its completeness.

Your thought process isn't wrong. Any time you move a coil through a magnetic field you will create some kind of electrical current within that coil. But we are talking about VERY small amounts of potential current/voltage in relation to the amplifier output.

It's like using a supercharger on your car. That supercharger requires power to produce boost. Top fuel blowers use something like 15% of the power the engine makes just to power the blower. Actually, this isn't really the same.

Hmm, I can't think of a practical example. But you are talking about a raindrop compared to a gallon of water. The raindrop doesn't really matter in comparison. I'm going to try and find a paper on inducing a counter-polarity electrical current in an energized coil. It's in regards to DC voltage so it's not a true comparison, but it's close.

Matt
 
Here is a post from a gentleman on a different forum. His name is Bob and his username is Aether Audio:

"To add to Mr. Haskins comments, I would point out that the "distortion" he refers to is the result of several more complex and detailed factors. As he quite correctly points out, the movement of a piece of wire (and even more so, a coil of it) in a magnetic field produces a voltage that is directly proportional to the amount of wire (measured by whatever graduation you prefer) moving through a magnetic field of given strength. This is basic electromagnetic theory and the fundamental forces involved in traditional generators of electricity.

The problem in audio arises from the fact that the amplifier is sourcing a signal (let's call it the "demand signal") into a complex electro-mechanical assembly we call a loudspeaker. For simplicity's sake, lets limit this loudspeaker to a simple cone based driver. That driver can be broken down in it's mechanical system to three major sub-components. The first is the mass of the cone, voice-coil, spider and surround components. The second is the "springiness" of the suspension system (i.e., the surround and spider components). The third is the resistance to movement or "drag" of that same suspension system.

In an analogy of these three basic systems, there are direct counterparts in electrical circuits. The mass can be thought of as possessing the quality of inductance (the electrical property of a coil of wire). The "springiness" of the suspension components can be thought of as possessing the quality of capacitance (the electrical quality of a capacitor). And the resistive "drag" of the suspension… as a resistor.

Depending on the values of these three electrical components and their physical arrangement/connections, they can form what we call an "oscillator." Once an oscillator is energized, it will continue to produce current flow back and forth between the coil and the capacitor - often long after the excitation energy that started the process has stopped flowing into the circuit.

Well...this same condition can (and usually does) take place in our simple loudspeaker. When the "demand signal" sent out from the amplifier drives the cone in a given direction, the system has the tendency to cause the cone to keep moving - even after the demand signal has told it to either stop or change directions. This is primarily because of the mass of the cone/suspension assembly. Just like a freight train can be hard to start and stop because of its mass, the loudspeaker will have this same problem.

If a simple "impulse" is sent out from the amplifier "telling" the cone to move in one direction only - then stop, the tendency is for the cone to keep going for a distance after the stopping point. This quality is called "overshoot" and is the same problem you have trying to stop your car instantaneously. Slamming on the brakes in your car will likely cause you to "skid" for a ways. In the case of the loudspeaker though, once it has come to a stop it will then move back in the direction of the stopping point intended as programmed by the demand signal. Here again it will often go a little further and overshoot in the opposite direction. This process will continue, back-and-forth, overshooting the correct stopping point by less and amounts until the cone finally stops in the proper position. This back-and-forth process is called "ringing" and plagues all mechanical systems to some degree. It is the ringing part that has an analogy to an electrical oscillator.

Adding resistance to the system will have a tendency to "dampen" this ringing. If enough resistance is added then the system it will "undershoot." This means the cone will start to slow down before it reaches it's stopping point. If this happens then it will not be "obeying" the demand signal because it's slowing down before it's being told to.

Whether the system simply undershoots, overshoots once or rings - any aberration from the movement being called for by the demand signal is a form of distortion. As bad as this may seem, there is a secondary side effect that can be just as negative.

Under any of the conditions outlined above, seeing that the cone/voice-coil system is no longer moving as it's being "told to" by the demand signal and because the voice-coil is moving in the magnetic field of the magnet - it becomes a "generator." It suddenly switches from being a "driven element" into a "driving element." Under such conditions of movement beyond that programmed by the demand signal, it generates a "back voltage" or...back emf (electro-motive force). This back emf is now attempting to cause current to flow back into the amplifier.

This effect can either be major or minor, depending on the amplifier design. If the amplifier uses negative feedback in its design, it will see this "new signal" on its out put terminals as an "error." It knows what signal it generated (the demand signal) and it knows this new signal does not belong there. So...the amplifier's error correction circuitry will try to produce a signal 180 degrees "out of phase" and of the exact same magnitude of this "error signal" - in order to cancel it out or "squelch it." Essentially, the amplifier will try to make the error go away. This whole process of error correction makes the amplifier work harder. In fact, it keeps the error circuitry very busy. If for some reason the amplifier makes a "mistake" in generating the proper error-correcting signal, it now has produced a new distortion product that was never there to begin with. The “busier” the amplifier is making corrections; the more likely it will make mistakes. That’s why it is important to know a little bit about a given speakers impedance and electrical phase performance. Low impedances and large amounts of electrical phase variations can cause amplifier problems by “working it to death” – so to speak.

As you can see from the above, that's why there are many advocates of "zero-feedback" amplifier designs. The view is that it's better to let the distortion resulting from the back emf to exist, rather than try to correct for it and make even bigger mistakes that can sound even worse.

My view is that of a compromise approach. Make the amplifier as accurate as possible without feedback and then use just enough feedback to control back emf induced distortions. But this is a whole other issue.

To compound the problem, most speakers have more than 1 driver and a bunch of capacitors, coils and resistors in their passive crossover networks. Any of these have the potential to generate back emf voltages. Some crossover designs can be such a bad combination with a certain amplifier that they can cause the amplifier to oscillate itself. This is somewhat of a different issue but the fact is, back emf from a speaker/crossover network can reek all kinds of havoc with a given amplifier. To be sure, the entire subject is quite complex as you start digging deeper."

There are very VERY few amplifiers with" negative feedback" output sections for this very reason. This example here is the closest real-world example of Damping factor at play. It would be an active component, or in its simplest form an inductor coil capable of "storing" the speakers countering electrical charge until the amofier output cancels it out and drives the speaker once more.

Matt
 
When the coil is energized in the gap, though, that coil itself is emitting an electromagnetic field.
That's what makes the cone move.
Idk what to do about this.
Take Richard Clark's 10 grand for starters.
the only factor manufacturers seem to give that would explain this seems to be the damping factor
There's no published spec they're going to shout from the rooftops that describes a shitty amp that doesn't have a linear response.

Do go ahead and name some of those amps with unusually high output impedances and we can see if that's the likely cause
 
Here is a post from a gentleman on a different forum. His name is Bob and his username is Aether Audio:

"To add to Mr. Haskins comments, I would point out that the "distortion" he refers to is the result of several more complex and detailed factors. As he quite correctly points out, the movement of a piece of wire (and even more so, a coil of it) in a magnetic field produces a voltage that is directly proportional to the amount of wire (measured by whatever graduation you prefer) moving through a magnetic field of given strength. This is basic electromagnetic theory and the fundamental forces involved in traditional generators of electricity.

The problem in audio arises from the fact that the amplifier is sourcing a signal (let's call it the "demand signal") into a complex electro-mechanical assembly we call a loudspeaker. For simplicity's sake, lets limit this loudspeaker to a simple cone based driver. That driver can be broken down in it's mechanical system to three major sub-components. The first is the mass of the cone, voice-coil, spider and surround components. The second is the "springiness" of the suspension system (i.e., the surround and spider components). The third is the resistance to movement or "drag" of that same suspension system.

In an analogy of these three basic systems, there are direct counterparts in electrical circuits. The mass can be thought of as possessing the quality of inductance (the electrical property of a coil of wire). The "springiness" of the suspension components can be thought of as possessing the quality of capacitance (the electrical quality of a capacitor). And the resistive "drag" of the suspension… as a resistor.

Depending on the values of these three electrical components and their physical arrangement/connections, they can form what we call an "oscillator." Once an oscillator is energized, it will continue to produce current flow back and forth between the coil and the capacitor - often long after the excitation energy that started the process has stopped flowing into the circuit.

Well...this same condition can (and usually does) take place in our simple loudspeaker. When the "demand signal" sent out from the amplifier drives the cone in a given direction, the system has the tendency to cause the cone to keep moving - even after the demand signal has told it to either stop or change directions. This is primarily because of the mass of the cone/suspension assembly. Just like a freight train can be hard to start and stop because of its mass, the loudspeaker will have this same problem.

If a simple "impulse" is sent out from the amplifier "telling" the cone to move in one direction only - then stop, the tendency is for the cone to keep going for a distance after the stopping point. This quality is called "overshoot" and is the same problem you have trying to stop your car instantaneously. Slamming on the brakes in your car will likely cause you to "skid" for a ways. In the case of the loudspeaker though, once it has come to a stop it will then move back in the direction of the stopping point intended as programmed by the demand signal. Here again it will often go a little further and overshoot in the opposite direction. This process will continue, back-and-forth, overshooting the correct stopping point by less and amounts until the cone finally stops in the proper position. This back-and-forth process is called "ringing" and plagues all mechanical systems to some degree. It is the ringing part that has an analogy to an electrical oscillator.

Adding resistance to the system will have a tendency to "dampen" this ringing. If enough resistance is added then the system it will "undershoot." This means the cone will start to slow down before it reaches it's stopping point. If this happens then it will not be "obeying" the demand signal because it's slowing down before it's being told to.

Whether the system simply undershoots, overshoots once or rings - any aberration from the movement being called for by the demand signal is a form of distortion. As bad as this may seem, there is a secondary side effect that can be just as negative.

Under any of the conditions outlined above, seeing that the cone/voice-coil system is no longer moving as it's being "told to" by the demand signal and because the voice-coil is moving in the magnetic field of the magnet - it becomes a "generator." It suddenly switches from being a "driven element" into a "driving element." Under such conditions of movement beyond that programmed by the demand signal, it generates a "back voltage" or...back emf (electro-motive force). This back emf is now attempting to cause current to flow back into the amplifier.

This effect can either be major or minor, depending on the amplifier design. If the amplifier uses negative feedback in its design, it will see this "new signal" on its out put terminals as an "error." It knows what signal it generated (the demand signal) and it knows this new signal does not belong there. So...the amplifier's error correction circuitry will try to produce a signal 180 degrees "out of phase" and of the exact same magnitude of this "error signal" - in order to cancel it out or "squelch it." Essentially, the amplifier will try to make the error go away. This whole process of error correction makes the amplifier work harder. In fact, it keeps the error circuitry very busy. If for some reason the amplifier makes a "mistake" in generating the proper error-correcting signal, it now has produced a new distortion product that was never there to begin with. The “busier” the amplifier is making corrections; the more likely it will make mistakes. That’s why it is important to know a little bit about a given speakers impedance and electrical phase performance. Low impedances and large amounts of electrical phase variations can cause amplifier problems by “working it to death” – so to speak.

As you can see from the above, that's why there are many advocates of "zero-feedback" amplifier designs. The view is that it's better to let the distortion resulting from the back emf to exist, rather than try to correct for it and make even bigger mistakes that can sound even worse.

My view is that of a compromise approach. Make the amplifier as accurate as possible without feedback and then use just enough feedback to control back emf induced distortions. But this is a whole other issue.

To compound the problem, most speakers have more than 1 driver and a bunch of capacitors, coils and resistors in their passive crossover networks. Any of these have the potential to generate back emf voltages. Some crossover designs can be such a bad combination with a certain amplifier that they can cause the amplifier to oscillate itself. This is somewhat of a different issue but the fact is, back emf from a speaker/crossover network can reek all kinds of havoc with a given amplifier. To be sure, the entire subject is quite complex as you start digging deeper."

There are very VERY few amplifiers with" negative feedback" output sections for this very reason. This example here is the closest real-world example of Damping factor at play. It would be an active component, or in its simplest form an inductor coil capable of "storing" the speakers countering electrical charge until the amofier output cancels it out and drives the speaker once more.

Matt

Thanks a bunch man, that’s a great read. I do think it’s so complex, and that’s why I struggle to explain it the best. Just what amps do has so many moving parts, if you will. Really seems like the sub can “pump” the amp into protect, in like uncontrollable-cone situations. The extreme stress malfunctions is what I’ve seen with the problems with amps. I’ve mostly noticed it on lows or moving far away from box tuning. Great read man!
 
I would say they are more higher end compared to Sundown but they are also made in the US so that’s part of the price tag. SALTs are half bridge so I don’t know what you’d like to compare. I think the SALTs are solid for sure but grossly overpriced imo
 
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I would say they are more higher end compared to Sundown but they are also made in the US so that’s part of the price tag. SALTs are half bridge so I don’t know what you’d like to compare. I think the SALTs are solid for sure but grossly overpriced imo

My bad. I thought the MMats were half bridge. I didn't know that they made full bridge amps.
 
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