Is turning gain all the way up necessarily a bad thing?

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

In pro audio we typically run the amps open full tilt and adjust the gains on the output of the gear feeding them, usually active crossovers/processors. But your job depends on not blowing shit up. Parking lot bravado to impress your friends is not in our job description.

So basically...run it at what I can, without blowing anything up?

If your not new to installing, but you don't know what a DMM is...then I feel bad for any installs you've done //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif
Have you ever blown an amp or subs before?

My installs have been pretty simple. Prior to this amp, I had a two channel meant for components that only produced 97 watts on each channel...so that's not gonna blow anything, unless I was gonna run my gain wide open until distortion killed 'em. I made that amp sound great for how underpowered it was; this amp is more complex and I can't quite figure it out.

And before that, one of these subs, run off that same amp. Before that, an 8" Bazooka tube...lolz

Has anybody told you that it's okay to max out your gains? Here or elsewhere?You have your answer. What you do with it is up to you.

Has anybody told you they have run an amp with the gain maxed out with no distortion or clipping? Then why wouldn't I be able to?

 

[dragnix 5,000+ posts]

The sound that is produced by the amp*...

your amp is not supposed to produce any sound //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

your amp is not supposed to produce any sound //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

troll //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[dragnix 5,000+ posts]

far from it newb

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

So basically...run it at what I can, without blowing anything up?


My installs have been pretty simple. Prior to this amp, I had a two channel meant for components that only produced 97 watts on each channel...so that's not gonna blow anything, unless I was gonna run my gain wide open until distortion killed 'em. I made that amp sound great for how underpowered it was; this amp is more complex and I can't quite figure it out.

I've tried listening by turning the treble on the head unit all the way down and at normal listening level (+7). But either way, it sounds shitty when the gain on the amp is not maxed out. Like the woofers want more power for the volume level they're at, but aren't getting it; like they're underpowered. So maybe maxing the gain is producing the perfect amount of power for them...that's what I'm starting to think.
The amp doesn't clip, and the subs don't bottom out or drop.

I see what you're saying, but at 1.8ish V the amplifier is not getting enough power to those subwoofers, it seems. I guess that's just a risk I have to be willing to take, or I have to get a more powerful amp? Even though this should be putting out 150 watts more than the subs are rated to RMS.

No. I don't think you are getting it. High frequency distortion is easy to hear. Bass distortion is very difficult to hear. You can't "hear" the woofers wanting more power. If it sounds "shitty" if the gain is not maxed out, your problem is unreleated to gain structure. You're mixing different problems that you're trying to solve the the gain knob. The gain knob can only help match the input level to the what the amp really wants to see. 1.8 v is plenty to overdrive any amp. It's not for providing more "power". It's just for interface matching two peices of gear. Yes you can run the amp open full tilt, but as others have told you it will probably kill your gear quickly, especially in the hands of someone who does not understand the variables involved. Moving up to more power requires you be more carefull about how you apply that power. If you treat a Hifonics Brutus like a Bazooka you'll blow shit up and fry gear pretty quick. We warned you.

If you think your system should have more bass than it does, the problem is probably your box and door install, not your gains. 9 times out of 10 this is the larger issue.

 

[littlepucker]

I've tried listening by turning the treble on the head unit all the way down and at normal listening level (+7). But either way, it sounds shitty when the gain on the amp is not maxed out. Like the woofers want more power for the volume level they're at, but aren't getting it; like they're underpowered. So maybe maxing the gain is producing the perfect amount of power for them...that's what I'm starting to think.
The amp doesn't clip, and the subs don't bottom out or drop.

I see what you're saying, but at 1.8ish V the amplifier is not getting enough power to those subwoofers, it seems. I guess that's just a risk I have to be willing to take, or I have to get a more powerful amp? Even though this should be putting out 150 watts more than the subs are rated to RMS.

fail

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

No. I don't think you are getting it. High frequency distortion is easy to hear. Bass distortion is very difficult to hear. You can't "hear" the woofers wanting more power. If it sounds "shitty" if the gain is not maxed out, your problem is unreleated to gain structure. You're mixing different problems that you're trying to solve the the gain knob. The gain knob can only help match the input level to the what the amp really wants to see. 1.8 v is plenty to overdrive any amp. It's not for providing more "power". It's just for interface matching two peices of gear. Yes you can run the amp open full tilt, but as others have told you it will probably kill your gear quickly, especially in the hands of someone who does not understand the variables involved. Moving up to more power requires you be more carefull about how you apply that power. If you treat a Hifonics Brutus like a Bazooka you'll blow shit up and fry gear pretty quick. We warned you.
If you think your system should have more bass than it does, the problem is probably your box and door install, not your gains. 9 times out of 10 this is the larger issue.

Okay. So it is not distortion. It still sounds like shit. And it's at certain frequencies. I've tried adjusting the low pass and subsonic but still nothing. When the gain is turned up, it bass comes in clean and sharp like it should.

So school me, why does running the gain wide open damage an amp if it's not providing for more power? I understand what the gain is for now, except for this.

The boxes are undersized, but there's no way I could upgrade to a bigger one. I have a regular cab pickup.

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

fail

Did you just jump on the "fail" bandwagon like everyone else because you really don't know what you're talking about, or what?

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

Let me expalin this another way. In pro audio I may leave all the amps open full tilt, but.... for starters we intentionally try to bring more gear than we will probably need so as to not stress the individual components. The amps have been carefully chosen to correctly match the speaker load and power levels. The gain structure has been carefull adjusted to provide the correct level of audio without sending the amps into clipping. We have very expensive limiters and processors to help prevent excessive signals from getting to the amps. We have meters on everything to constantly indicate current levels. I have computers to help me monitor those settings. Durring a show my job is to watch those meters like a hawk and clamp down on the first sign of trouble. This is why we brought more gear than we thought we would really need. If I fry the system, my career is over. I will lose my house and have to learn to flip burgers for a living.

In my car, I have the gains matched so I can run my system at normal levels without worring about blowing shit up. If you want "more", then improve your install, buy more subs and amps. There is no magic to be found with the gain knob.

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

That makes a lot of sense. Thing is, is that it just doesn't sound "right" to me. I know that that's like a newb thing to say, but I can't figure it out. I guess I'll just mess with it some more and try to figure something out.

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

Every newb thinks that since you get more bass as you turn the gain up, it must just be another volume knob and should just be cranked...do some research on here before you attempt another install, because it's VERY obvious you don't know how the gain works.

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

Every newb thinks that since you get more bass as you turn the gain up, it must just be another volume knob and should just be cranked...do some research on here before you attempt another install, because it's VERY obvious you don't know how the gain works.

Uhhh...I believe that's what I created this thread for lolz

For the record, I'm not "maxin out tha gain cuz it sonds betrr lolz", but I'm turning the gain up because it is making the bass cleaner and sharper. And I'm making this thread because I'm not sure if doing this is okay or not; I realize that I'm not a pro, like you obviously are. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Thanks for your help and everything, but next time read what I've posted before you reply to one of my threads, thanks //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[DidUHearThat? 10+ year member]

Okay. So it is not distortion. It still sounds like shit. And it's at certain frequencies. I've tried adjusting the low pass and subsonic but still nothing.

That sounds like it has nothing to do with your gains. The problem is either your eq settings, your install or just crappy sounding speakers, but it's not gains.

When the gain is turned up, it bass comes in clean and sharp like it should.

As I already told you, bass distortion is very difficult to hear. You could be severely clipping your amp and not hear it.

So school me, why does running the gain wide open damage an amp if it's not providing for more power? I understand what the gain is for now, except for this.

The amp is a dumb device. It just multiplies what ever it gets fed. Its designed to recieve an input at a certain level, amplifiy that by it's design amount and it comes out the back at the level that it was designed for. A significant amount of the energy is wasted as heat, even in the best amp designs. If you feed it the wrong input level, either it won't have enough signal to reach it's full potential (which is fine when you want to play quietly) or too much input level causing the amp to be over driven. This results in distortion, clipped signal, reduced dynamic range and significanlty more energy converted to heat. Even if you can't hear the distortion, eventually the increased heat exceeds the amps abilty to cool itself and something fries. The amp gives off a puff of smoke and dies. Throw it on the pile of amps that have been smoked by knuckleheads who didn't know how to set up thier gear. The gain knob is only to correctly match the output of the head unit to what the amp wants to see at the input. That is all.

The boxes are undersized, but there's no way I could upgrade to a bigger one. I have a regular cab pickup.

This is the real issue. If the boxes don't corretly match the design of the drivers, then you will not get the output you want and you may damage the drivers by not providing the proper amount of acoustical suspension they require. Find drivers that are designed for small boxes that you do have room for. I have an ED sub which is designed for tiny boxes. There are tons of speakers and boxes designed for pickups.

I'd also bet you didn't install any door dampening material, sealed doors or wooden rings for the woofers in your door either. This would also improve your bass. None of this has anything to do with your gain knob.

 

[hatedonmostly 5,000+ posts]

That sounds like it has nothing to do with your gains. The problem is either your eq settings, your install or just crappy sounding speakers, but it's not gains.

I'll look into everything once again.

As I already told you, bass distortion is very difficult to hear. You could be severely clipping your amp and not hear it.

My amp has a protection system. But you're saying that doesn't necessarily mean that it is stopping all the clipping?

The amp is a dumb device. It just multiplies what ever it gets fed. Its designed to recieve an input at a certain level, amplifiy that by it's design amount and it comes out the back at the level that it was designed for. A significant amount of the energy is wasted as heat, even in the best amp designs. If you feed it the wrong input level, either it won't have enough signal to reach it's full potential (which is fine when you want to play quietly) or too much input level causing the amp to be over driven. This results in distortion, clipped signal, reduced dynamic range and significanlty more energy converted to heat. Even if you can't hear the distortion, eventually the increased heat exceeds the amps abilty to cool itself and something fries. The amp gives off a puff of smoke and dies. Throw it on the pile of amps that have been smoked by knuckleheads who didn't know how to set up thier gear. The gain knob is only to correctly match the output of the head unit to what the amp wants to see at the input. That is all.

Ah. I'm new to this whole concept of matching the signals, I've always heard people saying to turn up the gain until you hear distortion. Not saying that that's the correct method of tuning an amp or anything.

So seeing if the amp starts getting excessively hot is a good indicator of it?

This is the real issue. If the boxes don't corretly match the design of the drivers, then you will not get the output you want and you may damage the drivers by not providing the proper amount of acoustical suspension they require. Find drivers that are designed for small boxes that you do have room for. I have an ED sub which is designed for tiny boxes. There are tons of speakers and boxes designed for pickups.

My woofers are rated to 0.7 cbf and upwards, which is about what my boxes are though. They are in truck boxes.

I'd also bet you didn't install any door dampening material, sealed doors or wooden rings for the woofers in your door either. This would also improve your bass. None of this has anything to do with your gain knob.

I'm not trying to get as much bass as I can, I just want the clarity I don't seem to be getting at the correct input.

Thanks a lot for how much you are helping me.

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

Uhhh...I believe that's what I created this thread for lolz
For the record, I'm not "maxin out tha gain cuz it sonds betrr lolz", but I'm turning the gain up because it is making the bass cleaner and sharper. And I'm making this thread because I'm not sure if doing this is okay or not; I realize that I'm not a pro, like you obviously are. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Thanks for your help and everything, but next time read what I've posted before you reply to one of my threads, thanks //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Did you miss the part where I said to DO SOME RESEARCH. If every newb came in here and made a new thread so that we could teach them everything...well that would be like a full time job. There's plenty of guides, and past questions built up in this forum to more than educate you on EVERYTHING car audio...so before you get pissy with me again...DO SOME ****ING RESEARCH