I seriously need some help

[Jlace 10+ year member]

What's the break-in period for the L15's btw?

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

What's the break-in period for the L15's btw?

No idea, actually. I understand that speakers "loosen up" after a while of playing, but I'm not convinced on any change in power handling or durability because of playing them at half power for a set amount of time. Anyway, I guess it never hurts, and I've been wrong before.

On to your other question, I tried really hard to suggest the LPGs, and they are a viable option. The guy at Madisound is correct in that they are designed for off-axis. Put those on-axis and they could tear your head off without some good EQ cutting on the top end. The big problem, and why I didn't suggest them is their Fs. It's rather high, and effectively only useable from about 3200 hz and above. I've heard of people getting 3000 hz with 24db slopes out of them, but that's risky, and not applicable in your situation. If you had picked the CA15, then the LPGs would have been my first suggestion. The CA18/LPG combo is a very tried and true combo that sounds fantastic. Typical CA problem though is that midrange dynamics are a bit low.

Now, if the guy at Madisound is confident that the L15 can handle 3000 hz, off-axis, then the LPG is a great option. With that cone breakup, though, at 8000 hz, that's going to be a tough sell for me.

Anyway, from the pictures it didn't look like the A-pillar locations were that much off-axis. If you said you wanted the CA15, then the LPG would be my first suggestion. If you changed your mind to the CA15, in order to use the LPG, you would in no way be wrong. The MDT 12, though, offers a bit lower response, and as long as it's not 60 degrees off-axis then sounds very nice, and will mate with the L15 a bit better.

I guess I never did ask what kind of tweeter you prefer. The MDT 12 is a very laid back airy tweeter, with good detail. It's a typical Morel sounding tweeter. The LPG is very bright and sparkly. Detail is superb, and they are great off-axis. Both have compromises and neither are the perfect tweeter for every situation. The best price to performance tweeter IMO is the Seas Neo. That tweeter is the best compromise of performance, ability, and cost. It's pretty big though for a small format, and would have been my first choice to couple with the L15, but it doesn't look like it would fit in your a-pillars.

Here's a link if you want to check it out and take some measurements.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4132415.16845&pid=2138

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

Oh, and you can never truly seal a door. You basically cover all the holes as best you can, just to add a little back pressure for the speaker. The tighter the seal, the tighter the bass.

I'm not sure what your installer means by "sealing the back of the driver". That kind of scares me. Without sufficient air, the driver will be choked, and you'll defeat the strength of the L15, and that's it's midbass response.

I've put together some response graphs to illustrate my concern.

The first graph is the response of the driver with a 0.16 ^ft enclosure. F3 of about 90 hz. Nice flat response. Any peaking will be due to cabin gain, but should be realized lower than 100 hz.

The next graph is with a .05 ^ft enlosure. This would require a tube of 5.5" wide, by 5" long (taking into account driver displacement). Still not a horrible response. Would be a bit boomy at 150 hz, and if there's any resonance on your door panel this is probably where it will be realized. This could be bad, or it could be okay.

The next, and final one is if the driver is just sealed up in the back. This is a 5.5" tube at 2.75" long. Not at all a desirable effect.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Well, I feel very stupid. My sub is e12a not a 10a. Gee, it's been a while. I saw a box spec for the 10a them measured mine. It didn't line up so off to Lowes I went and had them cut MDF to spec. Put a tape on the driver and called ED. It's a 12 NOt a 10. What a fool I am. I bought it used and it was sold to me as a 10 some years back. Glad to know I have a better sub and he didn't know what he had //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I'm going with you on what you suggest for tweeter and leave it at that. I need to get on with it. Here's the final question on the tweeter:

Would it better to have the Morel in the apillar or the Seas 27AFNC in the midrange location?

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

I couldn't answer that without listening to both.

The number one reason the Morel won out, IMO, is it would be okay in either location. If it didnt fit in the a-pillar, then the midrange location would work as well. If I could be sure the Seas Neo would fit in the pillars, then I'd say they'd be a good option. There are so many variables that it's really hard to make a concrete decision.

You have a PM.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Here are my sub specs now.

Elemental Designs e12A.22 Information

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

T / S Parameters

Qts : 0.41

Qes : 0.45

Qms : 4.71

Vas : 47.27

Sd : 0.0465 m^2

XMag : 29.5 mm

XSus : 26.0 mm

XMax : 26.0 mm

MMd : 216 g

Re : 3.61 ohm

Fs : 27.3 Hz

Bl : 17.49

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Physical Loudspeaker Data

Model : e12A.22

Mounting Depth : 6.625" (168 mm)

Mounting Diameter : 11.125" ( 282 mm)

Overall Loudspeaker Diameter : 12.5" (317 mm)

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

I have about 1 5/8" either way, the depth is more than enough on the midrange location I'm sure.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Aplillar

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Humm, I found this on the Zaph site. What about using two tweeters?

Dayton ND16FA ($5) - Very nice "super-mini" dome 5/8" diameter. Press fits into an easily drilled 1-1/4" hole. Works well from 3500 Hz and up, making it a possible mate with small woofers or mids. Great value for $5.

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

Humm, I found this on the Zaph site. What about using two tweeters?
Dayton ND16FA ($5) - Very nice "super-mini" dome 5/8" diameter. Press fits into an easily drilled 1-1/4" hole. Works well from 3500 Hz and up, making it a possible mate with small woofers or mids. Great value for $5.

Not a good tweeter below 4000 hz. Great tweeter for what it is, but it's duty is pretty much relegated to mating up with wideband drivers, and 3-way setups.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Ok, nix that idea.

My HU, the Nak is neutral to warm, nothing metalic about it. Does that make a difference?

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

It's worth another day to make this right. I went over to the Zaph site and found this...

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5706253.19997&pid=2202

Maybe it makes sense to go for this in the apillar and something else in the other tweeter location? My installer told me nothing over 25mm deep in the apllilar and this should fit there for sure. What does that do to the xover points/imaging though?

Also I finally go some good xover start points for my sub. They say 60-80hz. How does that meld with the L15 or should I go back and look at the ac130 based on my sub?

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

I suppose if there was a ribbon tweeter that you thought would fit, you would have mentioned it?

I'm intrigued with the idea of having one tweet in the midrange and one in the apillar. I saw a post where the guy said" I have the Seas 27TFFNC/G and run them 24db 2200hz-10000 then let my ribbons take over in the pillars. You may need some eq, the top end of the 27TFFNC/G rises slightly."

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Here's something new any thoughts on this one?

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Drivers/NorthD25.pdf

the read...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-31619.html

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

It's worth another day to make this right. I went over to the Zaph site and found this...
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5706253.19997&pid=2202

Maybe it makes sense to go for this in the apillar and something else in the other tweeter location? My installer told me nothing over 25mm deep in the apllilar and this should fit there for sure. What does that do to the xover points/imaging though?

Also I finally go some good xover start points for my sub. They say 60-80hz. How does that meld with the L15 or should I go back and look at the ac130 based on my sub?

That's not a bad idea, but not as easy as you think. For one, it would be considered a 3-way front stage. Not the easiest thing to implement and tune. 3-ways give you some flexibility in speaker location, but the crossover work can be brutal. For your case, you'd either have to build some passive crossovers, or not use the Memphis and get a very high priced crossover unit like the AudioControl DQXS. I still think you're better off using a 2-way. With the available equipment you have, it's the best thing.

The L15 should hit 80 hz. It's a toss up on how much impact it will have at 80 hz, but reaching that shouldn't be a problem. The AC130 has a lower Fs, but that doesn't always translate to better midbass oomph.

If you can get 90 hz out of any of the drivers, you should be good. Your sub will roll off at 80, and the midbass will roll off at 90, and you should get a pretty good blend between the two. It'll all depend on what you can get out of the midbass. Like I said, 90 hz shouldn't be a problem, 80 would be fantastic.

Unfortunately, there aren't really any "right" answers. There are just a bunch of variables that you try to take into account and plan for as best as possible. Let's recap though.

CA15RLY

Pros - Very easy to work with.

Natural roll off on top end makes it mateable to many different tweeters.

Very neutral tonally.

Cons - Very neutral tonally. (Yes, it's both a pro and con, depending on taste.)

Will have very good midbass, but can be a little bloated when driven hard.

L15RLY

Pros - Detailed midrange

Snappier midbass than CA15 for a more controlled sound.

Lower Fs might allow for a tad bit lower high pass in the midbass region.

Cons - Brutal cone breakup at 8k makes driver only useable to possible upper 2k range.

Will require stout tweeter to mate with.

AC130MKII

Pros - Lowest Fs of the three.

Kevlar cone should give it neutral, but more detailed sound than CA15

High sensitivity

Cons - Don't know much about driver other than what Zaph says about it's brother the AC130F1.

As for tweeters, the one in the link above looks to be useable from about 4k up. Seeing some response graphs it looks a bit ragged below that probably resulting in some harshness. The CA15 could handle that, but you'd lose some off-axis response due to the high cutoff point. People rave about the Dayton ND20, and now this Aura tweet, but they have to be implemented correctly to get the most from them. They offer great sound quality at a great price, but their usability isn't that good. You'd still be better off with the CA15/LPG combo than the CA15/Aura.

If you're worried about tweeter off-axis response, then the CA15/LPG combo should be what you're looking at. I'm not horribly concerned with the HD talked about for the AC130 as it will most likely be inaudible in car. So, with that, I'd venture to say the AC130/LPG combo would probably work as well.