I seriously need some help

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

You have been a very helpful to me, thank you.
I hoped I could do this on a reasonable budget. I'm a member of most of the major BMW forums and this model car of car is the one that is the most people find almost impossbile to upgrade to any great degree without spending large sums of money or cutting the car. Even then, most end up with mbquart and kicker. I don't have to own the very best on the planet but something that is a sizeable upgrade makes sense. Seas and Morel go a long way to that very purpose.

The dash kit has to be custom made for this car. I have looked at everything made for this car and there is NOTHING that makes any sense at all. As a matter of fact, the dash kist are down right idiotic. This model BMW is the e39 and while there may be more aftermarket parts for this body style than any car EVER produced, there is not a dash kit that does not look like a total hack and an after thought. Trust me, we have all looked. My only choice is custom made and this is yet another audio challenge here with this car.

I tend to follow the addage,."You get 90% of the sound from the first $1000.00 and then spend another $5000.00 to get another 5%." Close is good enough for me. Case in point is my sub. The ed10a needs very little power, works well in smallish enclosures yet is clean and punchy. Do I really need 2 12's? Not for me. No, I can't hit 20hz but a clean 30 is close enough for me and I can enjoy the car without chest pains. This car is my daily driver so SQ not SPL is the name of this game.

My son's car has been broken into 3 times to steal his stereo gear. His HU said, "I am expensive, please steal me." In spite of having alarms systems the crooks got away with what they could and left the car in broken glass. That's one reason my choice for HU was the Nak cd-400. Flashy it's not (no dancing dolphins on 7" LED) but has very solid clean sound and looks stock on the BMW. This HU will come out of my older BMW and it was never touched by thieves. Why would they steal what looks like a $50.00 radio?

I'm trying to be smart about all of this across the board.

That's an excellent approach. I definitely like your "90%" rule, and will use that myself in the future. I'm all about finding the point of diminishing returns, which is exactly what you stated as well. I don't find the need to use the most expensive gear. I find more satisfaction in getting good gear to sound great.

I have a nephew now that wants me to put something in his car. I'm hesitant because I know it'll be stolen. So, I definitely know where you're coming from on that. I've got 16 years to worry about my own son, though (he was born 5 days ago. I know, shameless plug //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif ).

Anyway, a good start for your crossover points will be about 2000 hz for the mid and about 2700 for the tweeter. When tuning by ear, make sure you're sitting in the location that you'll be listening from. With the L15 raise the crossover point till you stop hearing an increase in midrange. Since these drivers will be quite a bit off-axis, I doubt you'll get much more than 2000-2200 hz out of them. And if you start to hear some high pitched screaming from them, turn the crossover point down a bit because you've found the cone breakup at 8k. You just want to get them high enough to mate up to the tweeter. The MDT 12 can handle 2500 hz, and you'll probably end up underlapping the crossover points. I run my setup at about 2.2k on the mid and about 2.7k on the tweet. Others I've talked to use 2k and 2.5k respectively (this is from somebody that uses and MDT12 as well).

All in all, you want your tweeter to pick up duties as soon as possible.

Man, I still really want somebody to try out that AC130 though. That just looks like a great mid. Of course I'm waffling at this point, and do so when planning my own systems.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Hey contrats on the new baby! I'm suprised you have time to be here //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Well...I have not bought the drivers yet so the AC130 is still an option. Why have people not tried it?

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

I found something on the ac130 here.

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/ac/KanToo.htm

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

and AC as a whole:

Leaving aside all of the hyperbole these speakers are actually manufactured by an OEM company in China and whilst they sell throughout China under the Haihuang label they have been given the more upmarket Italian name throughout the Western world to appeal to the snob instincts in some people. Aurum Cantus speakers are freely available from various Ebay traders at much cheaper prices or even directly from Cattylink in China at http://www.cattylink.com who will supply a huge range of Chinese audio equipment at very low prices but before you leap in with both feet why not read that Hifi Choice review more carefully as whilst it liked the Aurum Cantus speakers at £1,200 it gave top honours to the Triangle speakers which were significantly cheaper. The summary is here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/reviews/Hi%20Fi%20Choice%20p9.jpg). Further reviews of other Aurum Cantus speakers certainly don't give the impression that they offer the best value at their own price let alone against speakers costing three times as much as the review here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/HiFi_World.pdf) will show and this review (http://www.10audio.com/ac_leisure2se.htm) where the reviewer didn't think much of them at all.

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

Hey contrats on the new baby! I'm suprised you have time to be here //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Well...I have not bought the drivers yet so the AC130 is still an option. Why have people not tried it?

Thanks! Nothing else to do but hang out on the computer, and watch TV.

Anyway, I don't know why the AC130, or any of the Aurum Cantus stuff isn't more widely used. The ribbons are popular with the crowd that's willing to do the extra work ribbons require.

It's hard once you find some tried and true stuff. Seas, Peerless, and Vifa make such good speakers for good prices that it's hard to branch out from them.

Now to be fair, there isn't much call for 5 1/4" drivers as midbasses. Most commercial component sets use such high crossover points that you really sacrifice midbass by having to have a speaker that generates strong midrange up into the 3.5-5k range. Also, when putting two speakers onto a wall and judging which sounds better, (i.e. your typical car audio store), the one with the stronger highs, and midranges will be the one typically considered to sound better by the lay ear. Two good examples would be the Vifa MG14, and the Seas CA15. If you put both on a baffle and played them the MG would sound much clearer and brighter, but that's because it's designed more as a midrange than midbass. It's no surprise why the MG is a platform for a lot of different speakers. The CA15 will have much better midbass, but that won't be apparent just haphazardly mounted to a wall in a sound room.

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

and AC as a whole:
Leaving aside all of the hyperbole these speakers are actually manufactured by an OEM company in China and whilst they sell throughout China under the Haihuang label they have been given the more upmarket Italian name throughout the Western world to appeal to the snob instincts in some people. Aurum Cantus speakers are freely available from various Ebay traders at much cheaper prices or even directly from Cattylink in China at http://www.cattylink.com who will supply a huge range of Chinese audio equipment at very low prices but before you leap in with both feet why not read that Hifi Choice review more carefully as whilst it liked the Aurum Cantus speakers at £1,200 it gave top honours to the Triangle speakers which were significantly cheaper. The summary is here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/reviews/Hi%20Fi%20Choice%20p9.jpg). Further reviews of other Aurum Cantus speakers certainly don't give the impression that they offer the best value at their own price let alone against speakers costing three times as much as the review here (http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/HiFi_World.pdf) will show and this review (http://www.10audio.com/ac_leisure2se.htm) where the reviewer didn't think much of them at all.

Good reads. Zaph did mention the distortion around the 3k point. So, if it was audible in a loudspeaker, that's a function of the overall design. Being mated with a ribbon, there's not much choice but to cross over high into the distortion range of the AC130. I don't worry too much when it comes to comparing between the home and car. You can get away with a lot more in a car, as there are just so many other sources of noise. The challenges of car audio are so much different than a home setup that it's generally unfair to compare the two.

Anyway, any distortion that is barely noticeable in a loudspeaker will be inaudible in a car. That's especially when one opinion said it was good, and the other said it was bad.

I still think you could get another 500 hz at the upper end out of that AC than the L15. That'll be easier on your tweeter.

I'm mostly curious about the AC130MKII. I really like glass/kevlar cones personally.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-404

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

That brings up another point. Should I seal the back of these L15's or use the air space in the door?

Originally, I wanted a 3 way with that Digital Design DDW.6.5 as a midbass driver. That won;t work anywhere in the front stage. I think what you designed here for me makes sense for price/performance.

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

You can seal them up if you like. It looks like either would take about .175 ^ft and have an F3 of about 90 hz. With cabin gain you could get a good boost out of 80 hz and have a really nice front stage. I don't know how feasible it is to have an enclosure that large in there, but that would be ideal. Other than that, I'd run them free air. Both Fs' are low enough they should handle 90-100 hz pretty well. Just sealing the back of them will probably get you an F3 of about 120-130 hz with a peak at about 175 hz. You won't be able to get enough low end from them to make that worthwhile.

Mounting them will be critical. Mount them securely using MDF. The more surface area mounted to the door the better. Add as much mass as you can around the speaker to lower the resonance.

I'm anticipating that either one will do well in there, and will be a far cry better than ANY component set for the same money. I'm actually quite excited for you, and would love some reviews when all is said and done.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Ok thanks. Can we talk sub?

I have the Elemental Design ed10a.22 and sealed. I went to the ED site and saw this.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?products_id=398

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

I found my answer I think.

Downfire & rearfiring= SPL

Upfiring & forward firing=SQ

That answers that...

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

How does this look?

Opti 200.2 Amp- for Morel MDT12 Tweets - Apillars 1st choice, Midrange location 2nd choice. 100x2 bridged @4 ohms - xover start points 2.5-2.7k

PPI a404 Art Amp- for Seas L15 Mids - Doors with spacers

200x2 bridged @4 ohms - sealed - 18dB high-pass/24dB low-pass slopes - xover start points 2-2.7k - Add as much MDF mass surface area mounted to the door around the L15 to lower the resonance.

Opti 500.2 Amp- for ED10a Sub - Trunk

900x1 bridged @4 ohms - no bass boost from Xover network - forward firing - xover start point 50-80hz

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

How does this look?
Opti 200.2 Amp- for Morel MDT12 Tweets - Apillars 1st choice, Midrange location 2nd choice. 100x2 bridged @4 ohms - xover start points 2.5-2.7k

PPI a404 Art Amp- for Seas L15 Mids - Doors with spacers

200x2 bridged @4 ohms - sealed - 18dB high-pass/24dB low-pass slopes - xover start points 2-2.7k - Add as much MDF mass surface area mounted to the door around the L15 to lower the resonance.

Opti 500.2 Amp- for ED10a Sub - Trunk

900x1 bridged @4 ohms - no bass boost from Xover network - forward firing - xover start point 50-80hz

Are you planning on deadening and sealing the doors? That will also have a huge impact on your midbass response.

Other than that, the setup looks really good.

 

[bikinpunk 10+ year member]

Man, you're going to have a VERY nice setup. Wish I were as patient as you when I first started.

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

Thanks Bikini, I think it will sound the best it can be, thanks to Minivan. I've done this once before so I'm familar with Peerless, Vifa, Seas, and Morel. It just happened that last time I ended up with Focals.

Mini, yes dampening of the doors is part of the installers normal processes he said. I did not ask him about sealing the doors. He said he would seal the backs of the door drivers. Does he still need to seal the doors too and how does someone seal a door anyway?

I called Maddison sound yesterday to check availability of these drivers and they asked me what I was doing, when I told the tech he suggested the LPG 26na. He said "It's designed for off axis applications." If that's the case or not I don't know

and will defer the final answer to you. I think much of all this is snake oil after a certain point. I don't buy into the Monster cable/Streetwire business. Wire is wire unless my runs are 1000 feet. So, you tell me, final answer and I'll go with it, mdt or Lpg?

 

[Jlace 10+ year member]

I also contacted EDesigns about upfiring. They told me not to worry about it. The guy was rather arrogant in the fact I asked about sag being 5% of Xmax. I guess I'll look to forward fire just to be on the safe side. He also told me NOT to the use 45hz bass boost on the Memphis xover. Then I asked him about xover point. His answer" Depends, 50-80hz maybe".

Here are my sub specs. I have .50cf sealed.

Specs E10a Subwoofer

Sealed Enclosure Yes

Vented Enclosure Yes

Infinite Baffle No

Box Size Suggestions Outline

Spec E10a Subwoofer

Sealed ( small ) .40cF

Sealed ( ideal ) .50cF

Sealed ( large ) .75cF

Vented ( ideal ) 2.0cF Tuned to 30Hz

Vented ( DDLoud) 2.0cF Tuned to 35Hz

Specifications

Qts: .406

Qes: .45

Qms: 3.615

Fs: 36 Hz

Re: 3.3

Vas: 20.1 L

Mms: N/A g

Bl: 21 T*m

SPL: 88.5 dB

Sd: N/A cm^2

Xmax: 15MM mm

Voice Coil: 62 mm

Magnet Width: 5.2"

Cutout Diameter: 9.25"

Mounting Depth: N/A"

Displacement: .08 ft^3

Outside Diameter: 10.5"