Hybrid Capactiros vs Capacitors

[dudadiesel]

I am looking for some clarification on the advantages or disadvantages of the hybrid capacitors. I see "Capacitors" and then "hybrid Capacitors" for sale. The hybrids tend to be the higher capacity units and cheaper per farad than the "capacitors."

I've tried calling a few car audio places and so far all I've gotten is that hybrids are "better" which is not very satisfactory to me. When I hear hybrid, I think that there is a combination of battery and capacitor involved, which may be why their capacity is higher but of course, this would mean the release of that capacity is slower. Am I on the right track with what I think the hybrid is? One tech guy told me that "normal capacitors" actually have fluid in them. A capacitor would normally have 2 conductors separated from an insulator, which is what makes it a capacitor. Why would there be any fluid in them at all?

Any knowledge on the difference in the two would be appreciated. I'm building a new car audio system which will have an upgraded alternator, a power cell big enough to handle the system, and my idea is to have the capacitor to make sure that I can give the amp whatever current it needs when the big thuds go off (and the power cell may not be able to discharge fast enough to supply that maximum power). Naturally, I do not want to go with hybrid if it's going to have any slower of a discharge than normal capacitors.

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[CSCStang]

@jeffdachef ;

 

[CSCStang]

@jeffdachef ;

 

[dudadiesel]

Anyone?

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I suggest you search the forum to see the experts inputs on caps. Also you might notice no higher level respected company makes them

 

[SounDrive Pro Seller]

Do not use capacitors. You're throwing away money if you do.

Ultracapacitors made by maxwell are another story, but that's not what you're talking about.

 

[dudadiesel]

I am mostly trying to find out the difference between traditional capacitors and hybrid capacitors, which I cannot seem to find in car audio forums. Car audio forms seem to be limited to a more less-tech based mindset of whether they "work" or "do not work." I'll start digging into the physics of it instead so I can find out the difference between them, then come back and determine whether a system which is already perfectly fine without a capacitor would see any benefit at all to having one added to it, and which type to choose.

In regards to the "ultracapacitors" I assume this is the brand name that Maxwell puts out. An Ultra Capacitor is also known as a Super Capacitor, and in actuality appears to be a similar concept to hybrid capacitors, but I will need to read on. I think I'm getting lost into thinking that any of these capacitors are related to the capacitors that I learned about in physics and they are all in fact more of combinations of batteries and capacitors with just different % of each for each type. Which would mean to me that regardless of design, they are not as good as the capacitors that I've been thinking of this entire time, where you would have instant discharge and fast recharge rates and an indefinite lifetime as well.

 

[I'mPoor:(]

I am mostly trying to find out the difference between traditional capacitors and hybrid capacitors, which I cannot seem to find in car audio forums. Car audio forms seem to be limited to a more less-tech based mindset of whether they "work" or "do not work." I'll start digging into the physics of it instead so I can find out the difference between them, then come back and determine whether a system which is already perfectly fine without a capacitor would see any benefit at all to having one added to it, and which type to choose.
In regards to the "ultracapacitors" I assume this is the brand name that Maxwell puts out. An Ultra Capacitor is also known as a Super Capacitor, and in actuality appears to be a similar concept to hybrid capacitors, but I will need to read on. I think I'm getting lost into thinking that any of these capacitors are related to the capacitors that I learned about in physics and they are all in fact more of combinations of batteries and capacitors with just different % of each for each type. Which would mean to me that regardless of design, they are not as good as the capacitors that I've been thinking of this entire time, where you would have instant discharge and fast recharge rates and an indefinite lifetime as well.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rotflol.gif.b453361716769b8110ddefc85ff03cd2.gif

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I am mostly trying to find out the difference between traditional capacitors and hybrid capacitors, which I cannot seem to find in car audio forums. Car audio forms seem to be limited to a more less-tech based mindset of whether they "work" or "do not work." I'll start digging into the physics of it instead so I can find out the difference between them, then come back and determine whether a system which is already perfectly fine without a capacitor would see any benefit at all to having one added to it, and which type to choose.
In regards to the "ultracapacitors" I assume this is the brand name that Maxwell puts out. An Ultra Capacitor is also known as a Super Capacitor, and in actuality appears to be a similar concept to hybrid capacitors, but I will need to read on. I think I'm getting lost into thinking that any of these capacitors are related to the capacitors that I learned about in physics and they are all in fact more of combinations of batteries and capacitors with just different % of each for each type. Which would mean to me that regardless of design, they are not as good as the capacitors that I've been thinking of this entire time, where you would have instant discharge and fast recharge rates and an indefinite lifetime as well.

Most of what they say are baloney just so you buy their garbage. Most of the times a capacitor is a leech in the system not doing much because in car audio, the current draw is soo much that even a 100 true farad capacitor does not have enough capacitance to help alleviate the heavy draw. It takes power to make power, if you want better voltages, you need a high output alternator and a big battery bank for a reservoir of power. For the cost of a garbage capacitor that does nothing, you can buy a small secondary little batcap or kinetik hc600 and get amazing results compared to a capacitor.

Do not group ultra capacitors with those garbage hybrid capacitors. They are in totally different universes. A proper maxwell ultracapacitor bank will cost A LOT of money but you'll also need to pair it up with a high ouput alternator depending on how big your setup is. People running ultra capacitor banks take the car batteries out completely, pretty getting power straight from the alternator. Theres enough charge to still able to start perfectly fine and it'll have long life cycles but you have to know your stuff to run it properly. Long does not mean indefinite, everything dies out with age.

moral of the story, unless you are going balls to the walls extreme with the ultra capacitors, mainstream regular capictors are garbage, they belong in the dumpster or as a doorstop. Complete and utter waste of money.

 

[SounDrive Pro Seller]

I am mostly trying to find out the difference between traditional capacitors and hybrid capacitors, which I cannot seem to find in car audio forums. Car audio forms seem to be limited to a more less-tech based mindset of whether they "work" or "do not work." I'll start digging into the physics of it instead so I can find out the difference between them, then come back and determine whether a system which is already perfectly fine without a capacitor would see any benefit at all to having one added to it, and which type to choose.
In regards to the "ultracapacitors" I assume this is the brand name that Maxwell puts out. An Ultra Capacitor is also known as a Super Capacitor, and in actuality appears to be a similar concept to hybrid capacitors, but I will need to read on. I think I'm getting lost into thinking that any of these capacitors are related to the capacitors that I learned about in physics and they are all in fact more of combinations of batteries and capacitors with just different % of each for each type. Which would mean to me that regardless of design, they are not as good as the capacitors that I've been thinking of this entire time, where you would have instant discharge and fast recharge rates and an indefinite lifetime as well.

Alright then, here you go - capacitors and hybrid capacitors are both useless because they do not have enough capacity. Ultracapacitors have more capacity and less ESR which makes them work better

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

the reason ultracapacitors change the game is because they exploit the equation for capacitance. surface area of plates and distance between plates are two factors.

traditional electrolytic capacitors have foil plates (spiral wound).

ultracapacitors have plates made of carbon which has 3,000 times more surface area. the massive increase in surface area is why they have so much more energy storage.

ultracapacitors isn't a Maxwell brand but a generic name for capacitors with carbon plates. They have been around for a long time. Maxwell is one of the larger suppliers for the US with applications for many vehicles.

we're also seeing them used in energy storage for solar and wind power applications. and large-format UPS manufacturers are implementing them in place of flywheel applications.

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

I am looking for some clarification on the advantages or disadvantages of the hybrid capacitors. I see "Capacitors" and then "hybrid Capacitors" for sale. The hybrids tend to be the higher capacity units and cheaper per farad than the "capacitors."
I've tried calling a few car audio places and so far all I've gotten is that hybrids are "better" which is not very satisfactory to me. When I hear hybrid, I think that there is a combination of battery and capacitor involved, which may be why their capacity is higher but of course, this would mean the release of that capacity is slower. Am I on the right track with what I think the hybrid is? One tech guy told me that "normal capacitors" actually have fluid in them. A capacitor would normally have 2 conductors separated from an insulator, which is what makes it a capacitor. Why would there be any fluid in them at all?

Any knowledge on the difference in the two would be appreciated. I'm building a new car audio system which will have an upgraded alternator, a power cell big enough to handle the system, and my idea is to have the capacitor to make sure that I can give the amp whatever current it needs when the big thuds go off (and the power cell may not be able to discharge fast enough to supply that maximum power). Naturally, I do not want to go with hybrid if it's going to have any slower of a discharge than normal capacitors.

Maxwell Caps are the way to go

 

[dudadiesel]

Ok, I finally found the chance to go out and get the answer to my question, which was not answered at all here, but did lead to helping me on the next one.

So to answer the question, a hybrid capacitor is an ultra capacitor. Ultra capacitor is a generic term for a high capacitance type of capacitor, and a hybrid capacitor is one of those types. This is why I was getting confused when everyone was spitting out the words of "they are junk, don't use them, use an ultra capacitor" because they are one in the same. I thought that maybe "ultracapacitor" was a brand name as opposed to the generic term of a type of capacitor. It was like saying "Don't use a V6, use a gasoline engine!" to my brain. Hybrids are ultra while ultras are not necessarily hybrids (could be one of the other 2 types, which are all related)

So, I still do not know for sure what the "normal" capacitors or "older" capacitors on the market are, but I think, since the capacity is very low, it's safe to assume that the type is what I would call a "traditional dielectric" capacitor. With that assumption made, those capacitors have twice the speed in releasing energy as ultra capacitors do, which is the drawback to an ultra capacitor. For more energy density with these neat little things that they are doing, they are sacrificing the ability to discharge that energy quickly and recharge back to full capacitance by roughly 50% loss.

However, as I kept reading around, I pulled out the calculator and figured out what 1 farad was in terms of joules and realized why everyone immediately bashes non-high capacitance capacitors. For a 3600w system, 1 farad will run your system for 0.02 seconds. Now, most looking for capacitors are probably trying to stop dimming lights problems or some sort of problem rather than fine tune a system like I am. So while I thought it was a little better than 0.02 seconds, by no means was I asking the difference in types of capacitors thinking like this was going to be a battery added to my "problem" and so the answers thrown at me didn't exactly help much. I already have a KHC3800 power cell lined up to handle the system on top of my 250amp alternator upgrade (there will be no battery so it can run at the highest voltage as I've read batteries put a drain on power cells) so my thought has been that I simply need something which will discharge faster than the power cell to give me even more. In the past, I had found the power cells were enough, but this time around funds are not an issue so even if I won't notice the difference, I still want to do it.

So now that brings me to the final question at hand. How much faster does an ultra capacitor discharge current than a power cell? The point of the cap is to make up for what the power cell can't do, which is discharge current rapidly, while the power cell is there to hold onto that charge and keep me going. Since I expect my booms to be in longer durations than 0.02s, I am going to drop the idea of a traditional capacitor as I do not want to have to chain 100 of those together to get the best performance (which would outperform a super capacitor with 50 farads in it). So I am looking at ultra capacitors in the high capacitance range if those capacitors still discharge much faster than the power cell, and I am sure they do. I even saw a 500 farad one out there which I might try for fun. But by no means am I trying to turn off my car and keep running my system with "storage" from a capacitor. I couldn't give a **** about that. if this was a lights dimming issue, I'd just put more power cells. I'm just looking to put as much relief on the car and the amp as I can.

So has anyone stumbled on information about discharge rates of power cells vs capacitors? I have yet to still put the time into looking at that but I may soon if nobody knows and someone is interested to know just how much "better" they would be for discharge rates. I don't really care about capacitance. Just measuring in farads is enough to tell me that the energy density *****. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Oh by the way. Give it 15-20 years. Capacitors will earn enough energy density to replace batteries and it will be awesome. Charge your cell phone in 10 seconds, and with a capacitor in theory it will always charge in full and never "go bad." Imagine an electric car that runs on a capacitor. Drive 50 miles, plug in, charged in 5 seconds and ready to keep going. another 10 years down the road and the 50 miles = 500 miles. can't wait for batteries to be overrun for those types of purposes, but we're still far into the transitioning stage.

 

[SounDrive Pro Seller]

I'm not sure where you're getting this info, but ultracapacitors typically have lower ESR than traditional capacitors which allows them to discharge faster.

You can't just use one ultracapacitor, either. Two of the most common uses are either 6 of the Maxwell BCAP3000 (16.2v) or 7 of the BCAP2500 (17.5v) in series. This allows your working voltage to be higher than your alternator's charging voltage - using a lone ultracapacitor would NOT have good results... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/flamer.gif.1fb8372af2de4b576aa9428ccc8a8f2f.gif An advantage of ultracaps over batteries is that an ultracap will be supplying current to your amplifiers even at alternator charging voltage. A battery will not supply current until the voltage has dropped down to the battery's resting voltage.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

hybrids are actually their own class, share similar technology but are nothing close to the performance of a proper super capacitor. The only reason to use a capacitor in your system is for your 4 channel amp to regulate voltage fluctuations in extreme sound quality competitions(where fluctuations can hurt your score) since 2/4 channels do not pull as much current as monoblocks. Most proper ultracapacitor banks add up to around 3000 farads. Thats with 6 or 7 of them like soundrive said, you need a certain proper voltage for it to even work.

Capacitors will get better in the future, but right now, we are still in the dark ages of agm batteries.