How Many of You Are SAVED?

[LIGHTBEING 10+ year member]

No relpies?
...or after only two day, am I just being impatient?

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Sorry man, I was away all weekend and I'm crazy at work. I'll be sure to provide quotes and examples of what I mean in regards to prophecies.

I will explain what I meant by the "no sacrifice"

One of the reasons I do not agree with the whole being "Saved" idea is because there was no sacrifice. Some may say, well what do you mean. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. God Sacrificed his only begotten Son, but I challenge that. There was no sacrifice.

The definition of sacrifice:

Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.

Something so relinquished.

A loss so sustained

God the Father did not lose anything according to the Bible, because Jesus rose on the 3rd day.

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Personal beef? I dont believe he ever was on earth.

You are intitled to your opinion. However, let me point out that not even the educated sceptics deny He lived.

Outside of the four eye witness accounts that make up the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John), there is the Apostle Paul's account in the New Testament. Volumes have already been written about the historical credibility of these records. Beyond the Bible Josephus, a first century Jewish historian allied with Rome, who's records comprise a great deal of what historians know about that time period, mentions both "Jesus, who was called the Christ" and Jesus' half-brother James (Josephus, The Antiquties 20.200) as well as His miracles, death and ressurection (Josephus, The Antiquties 18.63-64). Additionally Tacticus, a first century Roman historian also mentions "Christus" (Christ) and His crucifixtion at the hands of Pontius Pilate during Nero's rule of Rome (Tacticus, Annals 15.44). Another Roman historian called "Pliny the Younger" refers to Christ's crucifixtion and how the "Christians" worshipped him as God and exhibited greatly changed lives (Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96).

You can choose to believe He didn't live here on earth if you want to, but denial is not a healthy state of mind.

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[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

Ya'll mafukas need Jesus!

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

One of the reasons I do not agree with the whole being "Saved" idea is because there was no sacrifice. Some may say, well what do you mean. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. God Sacrificed his only begotten Son, but I challenge that. There was no sacrifice.
The definition of sacrifice:

Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.

Something so relinquished.

A loss so sustained

God the Father did not lose anything according to the Bible, because Jesus rose on the 3rd day.

Intriguing point, but I'm going to have to disagree. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif The Father asked Jesus to leave His Throne in Heaven and empty Himself of His power as God so He could truly acquaint Himself with what it was like to be human (He not only had to represent the Father to mankind, but He had to return to the Father and represent mankind). This was a sacrifice all by itself, but it doesn't stop there. Then the Father has to endure watching His innocent Son being berated, ridiculed, slandered, beaten, tortured and crucified, without intervening. At His arrest Jesus told Peter who tried to defend Him, "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?" As our creator, He could have judged and condemned each and every person right then! Yet He took it all knowing our ignorance because His love was real (though those who called for His crucifixion had no right to plead ignorance, it had all been spelled out in the prophecies, they just choose to ignore the ones they didn’t like). Then while Jesus was on the cross it says the Father placed all the sins of humanity on Him. Every sin past, present and future the Father had to hold His own innocent Son accountable for. Because He could not bear it, and could not look upon sin the Father then turned His back on Jesus. For a length of time we are not told, Jesus not only boar every sin, He was for the first time ever separated from His Father. For all that He endured for us, this is arguably the greatest pain He suffered. After His death, the Bible says Jesus descended into Hell (as our sins would have condemned us to do), where He had to face “Death and the Devil.” He defeated them and took back the “keys to death and hades" lost when mankind sinned in the Garden of Eden. He ministered to the souls of the faithful who had died previous to his “final” sacrifice and then was raised to life again. I don’t know if you are a father or not, but if you were to put yourself in the position of one, perhaps it would change your point of view. Did He lose Jesus permenently? He could have, but thankfully He did not. Did He experience loss? I'd say emphatically so.

 

[LIGHTBEING 10+ year member]

Yeah, I know all of that and truely understand your point, but i definately disagree. Eventhough Jesus beared the Sins of the World and was tortured, went to hell and back and died on the cross. There was still no sacrifice. Yeah, God the Father put his Son through "Hell" to save mankind, but the Omnipotent God already knew the outcome. There was no chance he could have lost Jesus permanantly because afterall that would discredit Him.

I mean take anyone for instance. If you had an option to put your son through the same thing to save your wife, mother, daughter, extended family, friends, everyone, the World, and all the time you knew that you would reunite in the end and be responsible for the most powerful event in the world, would you do it? The answer is ofcourse you would. It's a no brainer really. Because there is no scarifice, Now if there had to be a sacrifice you ponder your answer a little longer I would hope.

 

[psycho72 10+ year member]

I mean take anyone for instance. If you had an option to put your son through the same thing to save your wife, mother, daughter, extended family, friends, everyone, the World, and all the time you knew that you would reunite in the end and be responsible for the most powerful event in the world, would you do it? The answer is ofcourse you would. It's a no brainer really. Because there is no scarifice, Now if there had to be a sacrifice you ponder your answer a little longer I would hope.

You mean put my son through the hell that Jesus faced. No I would'nt. Not for anyone and especially not for stangers who don't deserve and would not appreciate or even acknowledge it if I did. Left up to me and everyone would already be burning because my nature is evil its only God that make me good.

 

[LIGHTBEING 10+ year member]

Well I guess we are different than, if it was up to me I would Because my Son is not actually being sacrificed. The point I'm trying to make is that there was no lose becuase "Jesus Lives" according to the Bible. Jesus was Tortured, yes. But was Jesus Sacrificed, the answer is no.

 

[psycho72 10+ year member]

Well I guess we are different than, if it was up to me I would Because my Son is not actually being sacrificed. The point I'm trying to make is that there was no lose becuase "Jesus Lives" according to the Bible. Jesus was Tortured, yes. But was Jesus Sacrificed, the answer is no.

He was tortured yes, but hey it was just torture! LOL. Actually the point you are trying to make is that Jesus is a sham. And you can believe whatever you want........but me and my house....we serve the Lord.

You know the funniest thing to me is that I have seen Jesus change the hearts of stone cold killers. I have seen him turn bad kids good. I have seen him heal households. I just this last couple of months I watched him reveal pollups and lymphnodes in a MRI only to have the biopsy turn up nothing (in a close friend). What have you seen that you choose to call luck, coincidence, fate or will. Why are those ghosts so acceptable and Jesus is not?

 

[nsain 10+ year member]

Well I guess we are different than, if it was up to me I would Because my Son is not actually being sacrificed. The point I'm trying to make is that there was no lose becuase "Jesus Lives" according to the Bible. Jesus was Tortured, yes. But was Jesus Sacrificed, the answer is no.

That's what I call gnosticism. I don't agree with that you're statement.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

You know the funniest thing to me is that I have seen Jesus change the hearts of stone cold killers. I have seen him turn bad kids good. I have seen him heal households. I just this last couple of months I watched him reveal pollups and lymphnodes in a MRI only to have the biopsy turn up nothing (in a close friend). What have you seen that you choose to call luck, coincidence, fate or will.

Just because something of good fortune happens, it doesn't mean that you can align it with an ideological character.

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Yeah, I know all of that and truely understand your point, but i definately disagree. Eventhough Jesus beared the Sins of the World and was tortured, went to hell and back and died on the cross. There was still no sacrifice. Yeah, God the Father put his Son through "Hell" to save mankind, but the Omnipotent God already knew the outcome. There was no chance he could have lost Jesus permanantly because afterall that would discredit Him.
I mean take anyone for instance. If you had an option to put your son through the same thing to save your wife, mother, daughter, extended family, friends, everyone, the World, and all the time you knew that you would reunite in the end and be responsible for the most powerful event in the world, would you do it? The answer is ofcourse you would. It's a no brainer really. Because there is no scarifice, Now if there had to be a sacrifice you ponder your answer a little longer I would hope.

I understand your point as well, I just have a hard time reducing all that Jesus and the Father went through to "no sacrifice" just because it was temporary rather then permenent (ended in victory, rather then defeat). The context of your definition only takes into account the beginning and the end of a situation, negating everything in between. Loss does not occur as a end result only, it can occur as part of a process or journey like Jesus' situation and the analogy you mentioned. Loss has never had to be permenent in order to qualify as loss. Jesus had to return to the Father in order for their to be victory, that doesn't mean there was not a great price paid along the way. When something costs you a great deal, that too can be defined as a "sacrifice."

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Just because something of good fortune happens, it doesn't mean that you can align it with an ideological character.

Why not? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif It is a matter of perspective.

Evolution would have us believe that life is born out of an endless stream of impossible coincidences, the closest example of which is a cartoon where all the dishes fly into the air and land perfectly stacked and unbroken. This despite the fact we live in a world where everything breaks down, moving from order to disorder, unless acted on by an intelligent force (even that only slows the process). Metal rusts, organics decompose, even living things that can heal themselves age and break down. The more we learn the more it seems as though there is an intelligent design behind it all. The same is true in life. Relationships fall apart unless we take an active part in keeping them healthy. Problems don't solve themselves unless we actively find solutions and then apply them. We don't become rich by walking around waiting for it to happen, even winning the lottery involves you taking the calculated effort to go buy a lotto ticket and be sure to check your numbers at the right time. In reality, nothing happens by "chance."

What you call "fortune" I call "intervention."

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[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Why not? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif It is a matter of perspective.
Evolution would have us believe that life is born out of an endless stream of impossible coincidences, the closest example of which is a cartoon where all the dishes fly into the air and land perfectly stacked and unbroken. This despite the fact we live in a world where everything breaks down, moving from order to disorder, unless acted on by an intelligent force (even that only slows the process). Metal rusts, organics decompose, even living things that can heal themselves age and break down. The more we learn the more it seems as though there is an intelligent design behind it all. The same is true in life. Relationships fall apart unless we take an active part in keeping them healthy. Problems don't solve themselves unless we actively find solutions and then apply them. We don't become rich by walking around waiting for it to happen, even winning the lottery involves you taking the calculated effort to go buy a lotto ticket and be sure to check your numbers at the right time. In reality, nothing happens by "chance."

What you call "fortune" I call "intervention."

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Sorry.....not buying it...LOL //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Sorry, I'm too lazy to type out a well thought out response right now (getting close to beddy time)........

Maybe in the morning......

 

[Frraksurred 10+ year member]

Sorry, I'm too lazy to type out a well thought out response right now (getting close to beddy time)........
Maybe in the morning......

LOL! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rotflol.gif.b453361716769b8110ddefc85ff03cd2.gif

I can relate with that. I don't know how many nights I've looked up at the time and thought "crap, I really need to go to bed!"

 

[LIGHTBEING 10+ year member]

He was tortured yes, but hey it was just torture! LOL. Actually the point you are trying to make is that Jesus is a sham. And you can believe whatever you want........but me and my house....we serve the Lord.
You know the funniest thing to me is that I have seen Jesus change the hearts of stone cold killers. I have seen him turn bad kids good. I have seen him heal households. I just this last couple of months I watched him reveal pollups and lymphnodes in a MRI only to have the biopsy turn up nothing (in a close friend). What have you seen that you choose to call luck, coincidence, fate or will. Why are those ghosts so acceptable and Jesus is not?

No, actually I'm not saying Jesus is a sham. I never knew Jesus so I couldn't comment on who he actually was or wasn't or his character. But Biblically speaking in my honest opinion, I don't believe a sacrifice was made because there was no lose. My opinion seems logical to me.

I've seen Buddah change the hearts of many as well as other religious dieties. Should I accept these as some sort of Supernatural intervention or just coincidence?