how many layers of deadener needed?

Strong adhesives / welding / or bolting on some bracing/reinforcement would be less costly for mad dBs wouldn't it?

Sa you had a weak enclosure, wouldn't you rather add a threaded rod or bracing rather than layers of CLD?

 
Seriously guys, let's think about this for a minute. First of all, it's not my theory that 25% coverage with a constrained layer damper toward the center of the panel is all you need for vibration damping - it's the accepted standard in every field but aftermarket automotive. That's how it's done in much more critical applications than what we do. To be fair, up to 40% coverage can have some added benefit, but the 100% coverage with multiple layers doesn't hold any water.

One of the things that led to this craziness is the famous tap test. Tap on a panel and keep applying vibration damper and tapping until the panel doesn't ring at all anymore. There are two problems with this approach. First, once you are done tapping, that panel will never experience anything similar again. Second, once you are tapping on a layer of vibration damper and then another and another, you are eventually cushioning the impact of the tap. It has nothing to do with why you are applying vibration damper. The tap test is a great way to identify resonant areas of a panel before you apply vibration damper, it isn't a useful way to determine that you have done enough.

The other misconception is that applying constrained layer vibration dampers significantly stiffen vehicle panels. Think about this. In most cases we are starting with steel. How much stiffer is it going to get from adding flexible butyl and aluminum foil? Even thick aluminum foil? This is like breaking your arm and instead of getting a rigid cast, you decide you can accomplish the same thing by applying a few thousand Band-Aids.

The problem with applying a constrained layer vibration damper on top of another constrained layer vibration damper is that the second layer is damping the first, the third is damping the second. To be effective, the vibration damper needs to be in direct contact with the panel. If the first layer is doing its job, the additional layers aren't doing anything.

Here's what Dynamat says in their FAQ:

You can apply Dynamat in patches (25-50% area coverage) to keep a specific panel from resonating or you can apply it over an entire area (such as the floor, doors, or trunk) to create a sound barrier and vibrational damper.
This is important. Applying any of these products at 100% coverage starts to create a barrier. You need a barrier to block noise form the engine, exhaust, tires and traffic. The more layers you apply, the better the barrier you are building. This actually seems like a good idea - I've done it myself, in the past - but it falls apart when you start to look into what makes a good barrier. The answer to that is simple - mass and not being tightly coupled to the substrate. Constrained layer dampers are certainly tightly coupled to the substrate. They also turn out to be pretty inefficient and very expensive ways to build a layer with sufficient mass to block sound.

Let's consider what happens when you add a liquid or paste on top of a constrained layer damper. All you are doing is reinforcing the constraining layer (foil). A properly designed CLD is going to have a sufficiently strong constraining layer to start with.

This isn't to say that liquids and pastes don't have their uses. They do. If you've ever handled cured liquid vibration damper, you'll notice something immediately: they are very stiff. When applied directly to the sheet metal, they actually do stiffen it - that's how extensional dampers work, completely differently than the way constrained layer dampers work. Applying a liquid or a paste on top of a constrained layer damper makes it impossible for the liquid to work the way it is supposed to, sort of like driving in deep mud.

Liquids and pastes are a good choice for someone who is going for extreme SPL and doesn't mind throwing a few dB's away to the vibration damping mechanism. For all out SPL, where nothing else matters, you want to stiffen the panels with no vibration damping. All of this comes down to defining your goals and picking the approach that will get you there. No single material can do everything and satisfy every need.

 
Seriously guys, let's think about this for a minute. First of all, it's not my theory that 25% coverage with a constrained layer damper toward the center of the panel is all you need for vibration damping - it's the accepted standard in every field but aftermarket automotive. That's how it's done in much more critical applications than what we do. To be fair, up to 40% coverage can have some added benefit, but the 100% coverage with multiple layers doesn't hold any water.
One of the things that led to this craziness is the famous tap test. Tap on a panel and keep applying vibration damper and tapping until the panel doesn't ring at all anymore. There are two problems with this approach. First, once you are done tapping, that panel will never experience anything similar again. Second, once you are tapping on a layer of vibration damper and then another and another, you are eventually cushioning the impact of the tap. It has nothing to do with why you are applying vibration damper. The tap test is a great way to identify resonant areas of a panel before you apply vibration damper, it isn't a useful way to determine that you have done enough.

The other misconception is that applying constrained layer vibration dampers significantly stiffen vehicle panels. Think about this. In most cases we are starting with steel. How much stiffer is it going to get from adding flexible butyl and aluminum foil? Even thick aluminum foil? This is like breaking your arm and instead of getting a rigid cast, you decide you can accomplish the same thing by applying a few thousand Band-Aids.

The problem with applying a constrained layer vibration damper on top of another constrained layer vibration damper is that the second layer is damping the first, the third is damping the second. To be effective, the vibration damper needs to be in direct contact with the panel. If the first layer is doing its job, the additional layers aren't doing anything.

Here's what Dynamat says in their FAQ:

This is important. Applying any of these products at 100% coverage starts to create a barrier. You need a barrier to block noise form the engine, exhaust, tires and traffic. The more layers you apply, the better the barrier you are building. This actually seems like a good idea - I've done it myself, in the past - but it falls apart when you start to look into what makes a good barrier. The answer to that is simple - mass and not being tightly coupled to the substrate. Constrained layer dampers are certainly tightly coupled to the substrate. They also turn out to be pretty inefficient and very expensive ways to build a layer with sufficient mass to block sound.

Let's consider what happens when you add a liquid or paste on top of a constrained layer damper. All you are doing is reinforcing the constraining layer (foil). A properly designed CLD is going to have a sufficiently strong constraining layer to start with.

This isn't to say that liquids and pastes don't have their uses. They do. If you've ever handled cured liquid vibration damper, you'll notice something immediately: they are very stiff. When applied directly to the sheet metal, they actually do stiffen it - that's how extensional dampers work, completely differently than the way constrained layer dampers work. Applying a liquid or a paste on top of a constrained layer damper makes it impossible for the liquid to work the way it is supposed to, sort of like driving in deep mud.

Liquids and pastes are a good choice for someone who is going for extreme SPL and doesn't mind throwing a few dB's away to the vibration damping mechanism. For all out SPL, where nothing else matters, you want to stiffen the panels with no vibration damping. All of this comes down to defining your goals and picking the approach that will get you there. No single material can do everything and satisfy every need.
^^^^good info
indeed

 
Strong adhesives / welding / or bolting on some bracing/reinforcement would be less costly for mad dBs wouldn't it?
Sa you had a weak enclosure, wouldn't you rather add a threaded rod or bracing rather than layers of CLD?
Absolutely, I'm running steel bracing from floor to ceiling. Deadening wasn't too expensive at all so I didn't mind doing that too. It can't hurt.

 
Strong adhesives / welding / or bolting on some bracing/reinforcement would be less costly for mad dBs wouldn't it?
Sa you had a weak enclosure, wouldn't you rather add a threaded rod or bracing rather than layers of CLD?
You beat me to the point. Absolutely correct.

 
Absolutely, I'm running steel bracing from floor to ceiling. Deadening wasn't too expensive at all so I didn't mind doing that too. It can't hurt.
No, it will actually sound better since you won't have as much distortion added by the panels reinforcing at their resonant frequencies and harmonics. The only way it will hurt is if you are going for numbers. Then it will definitely hurt, but I can't say by how much.

 
I would make a false floor out of MDF. and put it where ever you can in the walls of the trunk/doors. You'll turn your entire trunk into an enclosure inside an enclosure.

 
No, it will actually sound better since you won't have as much distortion added by the panels reinforcing at their resonant frequencies and harmonics. The only way it will hurt is if you are going for numbers. Then it will definitely hurt, but I can't say by how much.
So you're saying 100% coverage hurts numbers? Looking at big builds would tell me otherwise.

 
So you're saying 100% coverage hurts numbers? Looking at big builds would tell me otherwise.
I was wondering the same thing, i thought flex causes a loss in DB's?? I always heard deadening and sealing up the car 100% brings up the db's since it keeps the sound inside the cab and the pressure?

 
So you're saying 100% coverage hurts numbers? Looking at big builds would tell me otherwise.
I was wondering the same thing, i thought flex causes a loss in DB's?? I always heard deadening and sealing up the car 100% brings up the db's since it keeps the sound inside the cab and the pressure?
Vibration damping converts vibration to heat, that's how it works. That means sound energy is being taken out of the system. Flex does hurt - which is why you want to brace the panels. CLD isn't a very good bracing material.

This is why you see an even distribution between people who use CLD and gain a couple dB's and those who do the same thing and lose a few dB's (and then post asking how to remove it). Keep in mind that this only applies to SPL competitors who don't care about anything but what shows up on the meter. 99.9% of the rest of us will get a benefit from using a vibration damper.

originally sds was an information site, and didn't sell products. When it was an information site, he found that 25% coverage was ok for low-end systems. HE HIMSELF covered 90% of his car. Because hes a bit more serious than low-end.
I don't remember saying that, but it's possible I did. If I did, I was wrong. I wrote that 4 years ago and quite a few things were wrong. The main point of the original was to figure out which products were asphalt and which were butyl and why it mattered. At the time, a lot of stuff was being sold without specifying what it was made up or in some cases, outright lying.

The original SDS was what I knew at the time and came from my quest to make my car quieter. I posted it because a few other people on forums wanted to see what I had come up with. I expected 30 or 40 people to ever read it. In the end, something like 250,000 people did. An unintended consequence of the project was that I heard from many engineers, scientists and manufacturers working in NVH and related fields. They pointed me to all sorts information and many of them were happy to discuss the topic. Some people seem to think I changed my position now that I sell the materials (because I want to sell less of them?), but the reality is that I decided to sell products because I realized there was a better way to get things done.

 
well her's my $.02

i go for about 40 % coverage to eliminate vibration

and then brace overly flexing panel accordingly / i.e. mdf you roof /wait i already suggested that but if you want to but 3 or 4 layers of deadner have fun

p.s. deadning will not "keep the sound in" as all you door seals and handles will need to be re-sealed thats where you lose air/pressure

thats why truly serious competiors ave non functioning , bulletproof windows, and some still ratchet strap there doors shut

butyou will be better serve with bigger weather seals and a solid rear window

 
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