FI Q in a Phase Box.

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Top response is a back loaded "horn" with no flare and a compression chamber.Bottom response is the "horn" only (really a TL)

As you can see you get a significant extension in lower bass response with the compression chamber, so there's no snake oil involved there, however there's no mystery there either...

$100 wires may carry a signal a little bit cleaner but you wont notice much of a difference. $100 wires are snake oil IMO. No one is saying it doesnt work...we are saying it is putting hype on old pricipals.

Tuan,

You are now claiming this box is for non bassheads...yet first you said people where geussing a pair of 12's and 1000w...a pair of 12's and 1000w isnt exactly non basshead grade material. Make up your mind on what this box is here to do.

If you want to talk about transients and responce curves then put it on the RTA and give us a look-see.

 

[mrray13 10+ year member]

wow. everybody jumping on tuan, yet he's the one with the championship. and nope, i don't know him, nor own any of his enclosures. we do share a few common friends from the lanes however, and those friends have alot of respect for tuan. so i say this, either ante up the $250 for the enclosure, do your own testing and hell, even reverse engineer it, or quite grumbling about it.

the simple truth is this, tuan and TTB took the time to design and build this thing. and it works. whatever, however they want to call it, they have the time, effort and money in it. maybe it isn't ground breaking technology, maybe it is. the fact remains, they took the time to figure it out and are now offering to build it for you.

and if you think $250 is expensive for a custom built box like that, (regardless of "technology used) don't come to my shop. and i thought we were cheap.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

Nobody really knows anything about the theory behind the phase box because they are currently working on getting a patent for it.

This is the only reference I found in this thread of anyone mentioning getting a patent on this particular enclousure that they sell. But from what Tuan just mentioned, this isnt the case. So id think that it would be perfectly appropriate to share RTA data on said enclosures that you are offering besides just claiming on the Toxic website that "A single woofer in a Team Toxic Bass enclosure will outperform multiple woofers in traditional designs." If there is no patent pending, then whats the harm?

Mind you not that I care, I just find it perplexing that you all arent promoting your boxes suggested performance RTA graph any form......just strange. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

[sku 10+ year member]

It's funny how so many of you criticize us of try to patent something. Do you seriously think that we would release any kind of information or pictures prior to an attempt to a patent?
Yes, there are some patents that we're looking at. None of which include an enclosure mensioned above. In addition, there is another patent on a woofer design that we're also working with. Of course, we wouldn't be foolish enough to release any info so that it can be copied or criticized until after it's complete.

You want to see numbers? Then bring it in the lanes...where numbers count.

Numbers on the meter doesn't show much. Especially with transient response. Like I said over and over again...the vast majority of our customers aren't basehead. Rather they're enthusiasts whom seek extremely great sound quality with low end extension and still retain decent output.

It's pretty funny. Last year...I was challenged by many box builders. They claim that we can build decent boxes...but nowhere to be loud on the meter. And in october of 2006...the result was a World Finals win for us. If you think it's easy to win World finals...then I challenge anybody to do a decent number and win...no excuses such as (don't have time, too expensive, etc). Now again, we're challenged in other area's yet many people still want to see numbers. Honestly guys, numbers on the meter doesn't really mean squat.

I'm not posting to promote anything or prove anything. Our team builds excellent boxes that sounds incredible. In some designs we use some formula's that have yet to be sent in text books. All the money for our designs and enclosure builds...goes directly into our team fundings for the website, host competitions, etc and not for personal gains like other parties out there. We contribute a good amount of information to the car audio industry.

It's sad to see many unsupportive members in the car audio industry...where new ideas are always shot down by people whom think they know it all and those who do not appreciate the accomplishments of others.

tuan

Good post Tuan.

But don't you think instead of just saying that your box sounds good and loud that proving it with some objective data is a much more worthwhile tactic?

Again I think this is what the majority of the posters are asking for. But yet you continually make reference to the fact that the data doesn't mean anything.

Also, you may see it as being unsupportive but without any form of data for us to look at -- how are we supposed to evaluate the merits of the box...it is impossible to support the box soley on your reputation...you are asking people to pay for a product, don't you think people will want some type of "proof" before paying for said product?

I think what's happened (because there has been no data presented) is your video has had the opposite effect you intended...i.e. more people questioning the design rather then being amazed by it...again data would prove us WRONG.

Anyways, I'm done trying to say the same thing over and over...

You will not see me buying a phase box just on hype alone.

If I see data and I can see that yeah this box lives up to the hype then *I would be happy to try it*. You can't beat $40 just for the design plans right? But I bet this won't happen given your stance in this thread...

I guess that won't matter to you since you only plan to sell it to people that can "hear" the SQLness of the box for themselves?

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

This is the only reference I found in this thread of anyone mentioning getting a patent on this particular enclousure that they sell. But from what Tuan just mentioned, this isnt the case. So id think that it would be perfectly appropriate to share RTA data on said enclosures that you are offering besides just claiming on the Toxic website that "A single woofer in a Team Toxic Bass enclosure will outperform multiple woofers in traditional designs." If there is no patent pending, then whats the harm?
Mind you not that I care, I just find it perplexing that you all arent promoting your boxes suggested performance RTA graph any form......just strange. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/iagree.gif.15d6c075ee8d3913ba26866d06993068.gif

And I havent seen a single post calling out TTB's ability to kick *** in the lanes. I'm just wanting to see some data backing some claims. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Data isnt everything once the box hits the vehicle but it sure will stand a lot better than just some claims comming from the maker and his friends. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

I don't think anyone here is being unsupportive. We just want to better understand what this box can do. Without ANY data whatsoever, all we have to prove the merits of this box are the claims of TTB members and a video (Doesn't help that most computer speaks can't play bass and that the output of the box is supposedly listening-area-specific.) Most of us want to believe that this box does what it claims, but we need some sort of proof before we go shouting from the mountain tops about it.

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

but we need some sort of proof before we go shouting from the mountain tops about it.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

[rpfuror 10+ year member]

Tuan,You are now claiming this box is for non bassheads...yet first you said people where geussing a pair of 12's and 1000w...a pair of 12's and 1000w isnt exactly non basshead grade material. Make up your mind on what this box is here to do.

At his defense, I believe he is just speaking of “vanilla or standard design”.

Not to go on a rant, but…

I have been following this post since the beginning and have not it has not at all changed my mine. I will say seeing is believing and to think that Toxic designs, builds or fabricates anything more then what most people could if they put there mind to it is completely ridicules.

To say 1cm difference in design of this enclosure will throw the design completely off is a very bold statement and is why people are none believers (such as myself). It seems to me that a statement like this is meant to accomplish 2 things for the novice;

..Produce Hype for the design and make them feel as if they are not smart enough to fathom such a mysterious design.

For those of us that have any mathematical or engineering backgrounds, it will do the opposite. It will make us question the validity of not only the design but make it seem like it is only marketing propaganda. This is why people are asking for data and slamming the Toxic team.

Also, I have seen many times it mentions that a majority of the money coming in from the designs/boxes is going to the site/web content. If this is serious we need to talk as I have many servers that would cost you less per year then what you take in on one of your boxes or a couple of your designs.

I guess all I’m trying to get across is this.. Decide what you want to be in sales for profit or to advance the knowledge in this society. I’m sure people will trust you either way and if this decision is made you will get far less shit from people questioning your motives.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

If TTB is using some fancy, well paid web page designer then I can understand the cost...and it seems they are as it is very nice webpage design to a certian extent IMO.

However, that is a good point. Websites dont cost that much to run.

 

[Toxic Tuan 10+ year member]

At his defense, I believe he is just speaking of “vanilla or standard design”.
Not to go on a rant, but…

I have been following this post since the beginning and have not it has not at all changed my mine. I will say seeing is believing and to think that Toxic designs, builds or fabricates anything more then what most people could if they put there mind to it is completely ridicules.

To say 1cm difference in design of this enclosure will throw the design completely off is a very bold statement and is why people are none believers (such as myself). It seems to me that a statement like this is meant to accomplish 2 things for the novice;

..Produce Hype for the design and make them feel as if they are not smart enough to fathom such a mysterious design.

For those of us that have any mathematical or engineering backgrounds, it will do the opposite. It will make us question the validity of not only the design but make it seem like it is only marketing propaganda. This is why people are asking for data and slamming the Toxic team.

Also, I have seen many times it mentions that a majority of the money coming in from the designs/boxes is going to the site/web content. If this is serious we need to talk as I have many servers that would cost you less per year then what you take in on one of your boxes or a couple of your designs.

I guess all I’m trying to get across is this.. Decide what you want to be in sales for profit or to advance the knowledge in this society. I’m sure people will trust you either way and if this decision is made you will get far less shit from people questioning your motives.

I have never made a false claim and never will. Toxic enclosure engineering is not about marketing. We don't intend on going "BIG" or anything of that matter. Again, all of out funding goes right back into the team for the website, research and competition. We spend a whole lot of money on research believe it or not.

Most people will never appreciate what we do or what we can do because they've never competed at the world level. We put every ounce of effort to each and every one of our enclosures. Many people will never see this.

If you think 1 cm doesn't make a difference...consider this: In one enclosure that we built...moving a loading board 1 cm to the left or right lost 2.3 db's. That's a huge loss if the board is placed incorrectly. Most people don't know what a loading board is. Those that do know will tell you it's important. Now that is one factor of the enclosure. There are numerous applications that is also important. Add it all up and it will be a huge difference.

Data? How can I post enough data to satisfy everyone? Each and every enclosure we design is different. There are no identical boxes. Each person's car is different. Each person's taste in music is differnt. Each response will be different. I have some customers that only likes music in the 30 hz with rumbling bass (hence large group delays) and nothing else....this will look horrible on the RTA. I can RTA my car for you guys but some will claim that it's false. Others will say that I have a huge gain because I have a CRX....etc...and the list will go on. I'd rather not even bother.

I don't have to prove anything to anybody as I've already done so at world finals. If you don't believe in our designs...that's ok too. I'm not here to convince anybody anything.

tuan

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Data as in the RTA's and TL numbers of YOUR car...

 

[jimrhit 10+ year member]

If you think 1 cm doesn't make a difference...consider this: In one enclosure that we built...moving a loading board 1 cm to the left or right lost 2.3 db's. That's a huge loss if the board is placed incorrectly. Most people don't know what a loading board is. Those that do know will tell you it's important. Now that is one factor of the enclosure. There are numerous applications that is also important. Add it all up and it will be a huge difference.tuan

At what SPL? You come out here and tell everyone how much it matters, but fail to say that the sensitivity loss was only realized a 150, 160, 170+dB, well above and beyond (most) anyone's care.

 

[Toxic Tuan 10+ year member]

At what SPL? You come out here and tell everyone how much it matters, but fail to say that the sensitivity loss was only realized a 150, 160, 170+dB, well above and beyond (most) anyone's care.

That particular application was at 145 db's. It matters at every volume. They do all add up. Of course...most of you guys don't care. But little things do add up to a huge effect. But then again...I have no proof or data right?

tuan

 

[JoshHd6 10+ year member]

Numbers???????????????????????..

 

[jimrhit 10+ year member]

That particular application was at 145 db's. It matters at every volume. They do all add up. Of course...most of you guys don't care. But little things do add up to a huge effect. But then again...I have no proof or data right?
tuan

I see you like to play the victim card ... like everyone is out to get you.

At least you admit that the sensitivity loss was seen at extremely high SPLs, where, just as mic placement, everything matters.

Now ... was this a single (narrowband) frequency problem ... or was it a broadband loss across the board?