enclosures for mids

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

infinite baffle.... seal the inside door panel from the rest of the cab and the whole door becomes the box.....

More like seperate the front wave from the back wave...not the door from the cab.

If you want to make sealed enclosures for these drivers, you're better off doing it inside the vehicle IMO...because by the time you've constructed a pod that will hold these drivers still they will already be up against your legs anyway. Not to mention the extreme need to have massive amounts of mass loading to bring the FS of the door down anyway.

If you're good, you can make these drivers sound good in your doors. If you don't want to take the time to work with them, I'd say your money is better spent elsewhere.

 

[gsr22 10+ year member]

what are some other reccomendation for a 2 way diy setup as far as mids that go well ib

seas,peerless

and a compact tweeter to match seas neo vifa xt19

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

what are some other reccomendation for a 2 way diy setup as far as mids that go well ib
seas,peerless

and a compact tweeter to match seas neo vifa xt19

I think your questions will be answered well at DIYMA. And I apologise for calling you a kid, I meant no offense by that. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

A great place to start your tweeter selection is at http://www.zaphaudio.com Read the Tweeter Mishmash. He's also done great reviews on mids as well.

Another resource is Mark K: http://www.markk.claub.net/Testing/testing.htm

Good luck with the install.

 

[azngotskills 10+ year member]

well said FoxPro5 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[genxx 10+ year member]

These are cheap but general concensus is that they would work very well in IB. They are cheap might be the best way to start. Although they are cheap don't let the price fool you.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8188

I would mate these with the Seas Neo or XT-19. Either would make a pretty good 2-way combo. There are better sets that can be put together by spending more money but for the price and until you get a better feel for exactly what you like then move up the scale.IMO

DIYMA can give you some really good insight and recommendations on the DIY set-ups.

I am not expert new to the whole DIY set. But I am learning.

AZN where you been. Thanks FOXPRO for the great info as usual.

 

[SethPhillips 5,000+ posts]

ive always wondered that. how does my door become the box, if there is basically no way to seal around the window "gasket"? its basically a big leak right there.
just a serious ? ive been wondering about.

yea... that's not exactly seald off.....??

 

[xtremekustomz 10+ year member]

You're correct on a few things, but so far off on others that I don't even know where to begin to straighten it all out. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif Read what Genxx said.

By all means tell me what I am off on. And no, I have not personally used them myself but I am going by the technical data and what some sq guys that use them have told me.

Scan Speak drivers are made for realistic musical production and if you aren't going to install them right then you are just wasting money.

These drivers are made for home use for a sealed or AP enclosure. I didn't say they couldn't be used IB, but they sound better when done in an enclosure like they were designed for. They don't work well off axis above 2k. I'm going to be using them in my next setup but they are going to be in kick panels with the midbass in the floor. A door is the worst place for a speaker. I'd recommend trying out different locations before you mount the thing because no one can tell you where to put it because every car is different. Although I understand that the speakers are going in your doors no matter what...I would just recommend something that is more suited for your application.

When you hear people talk about how good these sound it has ALOT to do with the installation and tuning. Just because it is one of the best midranges doesn't mean that you can just throw it in somewhere.

Installation of your midrange is the most important part of the setup. Throwing a speaker in a door isn't going to give you the best imaginging, sound, or closest pathlengths possible. Quoted from Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own..... Keep in mind that the drivers he used were designed to work very well 35 degrees off axis that has a dip at 2k but levels back out and goes well beyond the midrange frequencies.

And yes, very strong fiberglass enclosures. I'm going to go ahead and tell you....making an enclosure for a midrange/midbass can cause you alot of headache. If you don't get that thing where it doesn't doesn't resonate it is just going to sound like pure ***.

You want to keep all the sound bouncing around inside your enclosure to a minimum so the stronger and deadened the better. Preferably lined with clay. Build a weak undeadened enclosure and see what 100-125 hz sounds like.

You may want to look for something in a car audio line that you can put in the doors and just use the door for the enclosure. I'm not telling you not to do it...but it isn't going to be easy to make it sound right by any means.

Once again...the door is not a good place for a midrange. The only thing I would put in a door would be a straight midbass but even then I wouldn't like it. I can't even explain how much more realistic my Dyns sound after I put them in the kicks in an AP enclosure.

If you want something that has a good thump, has the ability to play loud and handle lots of power I would say go with a Dynaudio.

The dyn's are cheaper than the Scan Speak drivers and have a better off axis response beyond the 2k that the Scans have. You may actually want to look into the JBL 660GTI's. Like stated above, they work very well off axis for both listeners.

 

[MiniVanMan 10+ year member]

An enclosure has very little affect as to how a driver will react on it upper end. The only thing that really comes into play on the upper end is baffle step, and any diffraction artifacts due to sharp corners, and weird angles. So, to say the Scans won't sound good because they're designed to be used in an enclosure is not very accurate. Where you'll see a problem is on the bottom end, and has no bearing on off-axis alignment, midrange clarity etc.

I'm looking at response graphs for the Dyns and the Scans. The Scans actually have better off-axis response. The Scans exhibit a flat response to 2k at 60 degrees off-axis with a mild 1-2 db hump at 1-2k. Midrange clarity is accentuated, and in an off-axis alignment like a door will actually perform very nicely. The Dynaudio MW162, while a smaller driver does not actually exhibit better off-axis response. In fact 2k at 60 degrees off-axis the driver fairs worse than the Scan, with a drop of about a 2 db. It exhibits the same type of hump in the 1-2k range and is typical in a lot of drivers to help off-axis listening. Overall though, a relatively similar performer, with a bit less performance on the top end. I don't know how much the Dyn MW162 costs, but if it's anywhere in the $150-200 range, I can think of a couple of drivers that will outperform it.

So, you'd be hard pressed to tell me how the Dyns will fare better. They may have a higher Qts making them more suitable for IB applications, but you'll also lose bottom end. I know the Dyns have good low end, but they don't come close to the Scans. I'm sorry, they just don't. The MW162 doesn't have better off-axis response. When we're talking drivers in this price range, we're also talking higher end tweeters. The need to reach 3k 60 degrees off-axis becomes moot when talking about a Cal27/28, or Lotus RT27F, etc, etc. Even in home scenarios, the goal is usually to keep the crossover point as low as possible in a 2-way to keep off-axis listening as flat as possible.

The Dyns exhibit the same thing as the Scans in the upper midrange, and that is a hump. That allows for a more detailed midrange. They still exhibit a drop off like any other driver the further off-axis you go. The Dyns do not somehow defy the laws of physics. If the argument were say Dyns against the Seas RNX series drivers, I'd say you have a valid argument. You picked the wrong driver in the Scans to state your off-axis argument. The Qts of the Scans being .36 does lend the driver to needing more of a controlled environment of the higher Qts standard car audio designed drivers. The Dyn MW162 has a Qts of .45 which still lends it to needing a controlled environment, and in reality isn't that much higher than the .36 of the Scans. In a well treated door, the difference will be negligible with the Scans coming out on top because of the much lower Fs. The Scans have an Fs of 28 hz, and the Dyns have an Fs of 55 hz. Again, points for the Scans.

Like FoxPro5 said, it's a big mix of fairly accurate and very inaccurate information. It's hard to know where to begin. You're relatively on the right track, but I think you've been misguided in the past by some people that accept common myths as fact.

 

[xtremekustomz 10+ year member]

Watch madisound.com They sometimes put those things on sale half price. I hope I catch them when they do. Sure would be nice to get (2) 4.5" and (2) 7" for a little over $400

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Watch madisound.com They sometimes put those things on sale half price. I hope I catch them when they do. Sure would be nice to get (2) 4.5" and (2) 7" for a little over $400

Great advice, but the most recent clear out of the Scans was for the 8 ohm shielded versions. They had about 170 pairs of them and they went very fast. Luckly I was able to snag a pair. So I wouldn't expect the 4 ohm version to be on sale...let alone anytime soon...but who knows??? It's hard to imagine a Carrera being suseptable to the laws of supply and demand.

And just an adjunct to MiniVan's comments on low end performace. I've owned some very nice midbass drivers and they've all done pretty well. However, NOTHING compares to these drivers yet IME. Why? I can't tell you because I don't care. I just know that my ears don't lie.

One thing I've realized is that you just cannot expect graph results once YOU install them. The car is not a lab, it's the field. These forums are great places to read about feedback from the field by those who provide personal feedback. Therefore comments such as "I read the Scans in an IB sucked ***" must be weighed on many many factors. So many factors, in fact, that the statement becomes almost worthless if you're trying to make any logical decision based off of it.

So, what it comes down to is TRIAL AND ERROR! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Which is why I switch my equipment out faster than a nun in a ***** house! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

By all means tell me what I am off on. And no, I have not personally used them myself but I am going by the technical data and what some sq guys that use them have told me.


These drivers are made for home use for a sealed or AP enclosure. I didn't say they couldn't be used IB, but they sound better when done in an enclosure like they were designed for. They don't work well off axis above 2k. I'm going to be using them in my next setup but they are going to be in kick panels with the midbass in the floor. A door is the worst place for a speaker. I'd recommend trying out different locations before you mount the thing because no one can tell you where to put it because every car is different. Although I understand that the speakers are going in your doors no matter what...I would just recommend something that is more suited for your application.

Installation of your midrange is the most important part of the setup. Throwing a speaker in a door isn't going to give you the best imaginging, sound, or closest pathlengths possible. Quoted from Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own..... Keep in mind that the drivers he used were designed to work very well 35 degrees off axis that has a dip at 2k but levels back out and goes well beyond the midrange frequencies.

You want to keep all the sound bouncing around inside your enclosure to a minimum so the stronger and deadened the better. Preferably lined with clay. Build a weak undeadened enclosure and see what 100-125 hz sounds like.

Once again...the door is not a good place for a midrange. The only thing I would put in a door would be a straight midbass but even then I wouldn't like it. I can't even explain how much more realistic my Dyns sound after I put them in the kicks in an AP enclosure.

The dyn's are cheaper than the Scan Speak drivers and have a better off axis response beyond the 2k that the Scans have. You may actually want to look into the JBL 660GTI's. Like stated above, they work very well off axis for both listeners.

Oh....

My.....

Gawd!!!! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

 

[genxx 10+ year member]

xtremekustomz

Gary Biggs himself: "Alot of people are curious about the angle or the placement of the speakers.... though it is important the actaul installation of the speakers is far more important..... 1. strongest enclosure you can build, 2. left and right side speaker enclosure exactly the same size, 3. left and right side of the car should be mirror images of one another, 4. absolutley no vibration or resonance from the dash, firewall, floorboard, doors, seats, kick panel areas, and for sure not the speaker enclosures, 5. both left and right have to have the exact freq. response as each other...... these 5 things are not rocket science at all, I didn't invent any of these concepts, I only emplemented each of them 150%... If you do these things the magic will happen on its own

I have read many of Biggs things. No where in there does he say anything about door speakers are not a good location. He is mearly stating that you have to do a good install. If you deadener the doors properly, seal what you can and all the little small things. For a dedicated mid-bass a door is very good.IMO If you are running a 3-way its pretty much your only option. Unless you plan on putting your mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter in all in the floor or kicks. Kicks could become a problem with trying to mount three drivers all together that close. Possible cancellation and phase issues. Looks like alot of tuning if you get it to sound rignt. 2-way yes Kicks are great if done right. Take a look at the pics FOXPRO posted he is using door locations.

You seem to be possibly a comp competetor. So I ask you this? The last car I competed with was a 2001 Jetta. My score sheets have some pretty **** good scores on them. I was able to RTA 32-33 several times also.(invited to worlds) The speakers where all mounted in the factory locations. Tweeters in the sails and mid in the door. Which was not the optimal location. Had no T/A and was not even active. I did have a good bit of EQ capability though. The truck I had did pretty good with the same basic install.(invite to worlds) So doors are not all that bad if you just take some time to do them properly.IMO Going by what you stated it should have sounded like A**. So explain to me how it sounded so good in the worst possible location.

You are making to many assumption based on just reading stuff and to many generalized statments. Its a car they are all different and many things are possible. You seem to like Biggs stuff alot. Look at his Regal quit interesting in many ways. Did you also check out the Rane in the trunk and read later that he was using basically something similiar to the new JBL MS-8 at one point. When talking about guys like Biggs or their cars remeber their cars where not daily drivers and everything under the sun has been modified. From the dash to the A/C. If I could afford to have a dedicated veh. for car audio and nothing else then it would be cool. Most people still need their vehicles for public transportation.

So giving a 150% on the install and same **** fine processing go's along way.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

That's a very good point. You can't expect world class sound and performance on 4th grade car audio education. Not saying that to be offensive, but put the information in the contex of the person using it!

I personally love to read what Scott B has to say because he doesn't beat around the bush and will translate what his ears and experience have taught him. But, he does it in a civil matter and doesn't go down the arrogant *** route. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fro.gif.c695f1f814b01c4ad99fe7f8cccadd29.gif

And I will also add, based on my experience with the Scans IB, is that somehow I got very little door resonance. You can see from the pics how much mass loading is there....not a ton, but enough. And still I was shocked how my doors hung in there. Not only that, but there was really no boominess on the top nor any muddyness on the bottom. Just not a lot of snap and and raw impact that feels like a sledge hammer to the sternum. BUT, my oh my...... Smooooooooth and loooooooow....kind of like having a home theater system in your car, actually. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

For the first time EVER, I honestly could not locate my sub in the rear of the car...even dring heavy bass tracks that used to pull toward the rear. I attribute this to being able to cross these drivers over so low (and using the best sub in the world //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif). I could easly drop the HP down to 40hz, but then found that my stage seemed to sink to an undesirable level.

I'm currently attempting 8's in the doors and if I cannot get them to work, back to the Scan's I go!! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/greedy.gif.5a53e6246569d7ab79867170f3b06629.gif

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

why not get a more car suited driver and spend the effort on the install??

 

[xtremekustomz 10+ year member]

xtremekustomz
I have read many of Biggs things. No where in there does he say anything about door speakers are not a good location. He is mearly stating that you have to do a good install. If you deadener the doors properly, seal what you can and all the little small things. For a dedicated mid-bass a door is very good.IMO If you are running a 3-way its pretty much your only option. Unless you plan on putting your mid-bass, mid-range and tweeter in all in the floor or kicks. Kicks could become a problem with trying to mount three drivers all together that close. Possible cancellation and phase issues. Looks like alot of tuning if you get it to sound rignt. 2-way yes Kicks are great if done right. Take a look at the pics FOXPRO posted he is using door locations.

First thing...I've got to remember is that not everyone is planning on competing. Anyway....on the judging part, from what I hear IASCA is going or has gone to 2 seat judging next year in every class other than rookie. To be judged 2 seat your pathlengths need to be close and I personally don't know of any vehicle where the pathlengts are within 6" of each other. That's not to say that their isn't one by any means, I just don't know of one. I know I get a small amount of water in my doors when it rains so that was another reason for trying to steer him clear from IB but his particular doors may be fine. I just hate to see someone spend that kind of money and regret it later down the road. As for FOXPRO's door panel installation...if you are going to to doors, that is the right way to do it. They look very solid and sealed.

You seem to be possibly a comp competetor. So I ask you this? The last car I competed with was a 2001 Jetta. My score sheets have some pretty **** good scores on them. I was able to RTA 32-33 several times also.(invited to worlds) The speakers where all mounted in the factory locations. Tweeters in the sails and mid in the door. Which was not the optimal location. Had no T/A and was not even active. I did have a good bit of EQ capability though. The truck I had did pretty good with the same basic install.(invite to worlds) So doors are not all that bad if you just take some time to do them properly.IMO Going by what you stated it should have sounded like A**. So explain to me how it sounded so good in the worst possible location.,

I'm not saying you can't get a good score with door midranges. The problem I personally had with a large driver in the door, no matter how solid I made the thing and how much deadener I used, is that my stage would drop if there was a drum or deep male voice on the left or right side. This was running the driver up to 900hz with the midrange and tweet in the kicks no more than 6" away. I know every driver is different and every vehicle is different but I hear alot of the same complaints and alot of competiors moving the midbass to the floor or kicks. Having said that...as a dedicated midbass driver...yeah, a door is fine. I had mine running from 40-160 in the doors and they sounded good there and my stage heigh was back to where it needed to be all the time, but it was a major difference when they got in the kicks. Depth increased dramitically and the drums were unbelieveable. At one time I had a Dyn System 360 in my doors and it sounded good but nothing like it does now. As for a door mounted mid, I said they would sound like a** if they weren't installed correctly as in the enclosures he was talking about building, you know, not built solid and sounding muddy. Either way...we know the mids are going in the doors and this guy may or may not have the processing capability to correct any problems he might have so lets help the guy figure out what he needs to do to get the best sound from the doors. I just see alot of people that buy a driver and not take the time to install it correctly and then say "These speakers sound awful" when it actually has alot to do with the installation. Like I said, it isn't that I don't think he can get a good sound from the doors but I just personally think it would sound better in the kicks which isn't going to happen so that is a dead point. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

You are making too many assumption based on just reading stuff and to many generalized statments. Its a car they are all different and many things are possible. You seem to like Biggs stuff alot. Look at his Regal quit interesting in many ways. Did you also check out the Rane in the trunk and read later that he was using basically something similiar to the new JBL MS-8 at one point. When talking about guys like Biggs or their cars remeber their cars where not daily drivers and everything under the sun has been modified. From the dash to the A/C. If I could afford to have a dedicated veh. for car audio and nothing else then it would be cool. Most people still need their vehicles for public transportation.

So giving a 150% on the install and same **** fine processing go's along way.

I know the Regal was extensively modified. I'm willing to bet there are going to be alot of people using the MS-8 for competing now. Looks like it is going to be the way to go. Have they started selling them yet? I may even look into one when I start the next build.